Manchester Derby

[Andrew 4229]

just seen the SSN report on the man c v man u match last night complete with journalist claiming its the biggest derby in the world

 

I say "is it fuck"

 

what about you?

[Kitman 2188]

Nonsense. Barca vs Real Madrid, shirley?

[Guest Stevie]

Biggest derby in the world One set of fans laughs at the other and has done for 30 years, the others are just bitter. It's a fucking shit derby incomparable to the Tyne/Wear derby even. Mancmag knows better than most, that Manchester isn't even a passionate football city, I find that hard to believe but he's grown up there so he should know.

 

River Plate v Boca Juniors - biggest derby on earth bar none nothing else is anywhere near it, arguably the two biggest clubs in South America, both from the same city and battle of aristocrat against pauper, rich against poor, it divides a nation of 38m people, and as part of the build up on TV they even have film crews following the firms live. Nothing is on the same planet as that game.

Edited January 28, 2010 by Stevie

[Papa Lazaru 0]

Course it isn't, but any chance for the media to get up manu's backside and they take it. Until City got taken over and started to look a threat pretty much every manu fan would hate Liverpool more than City who they saw as insiginificant.

 

Far more passion, hatred etc in Barca-Madrid, Celtic-Rangers, Bocca-River Plate, Roma-Lazio, Milan Derby etc and us and the mackems to name a few.

[1892 0]

Course it isn't, but any chance for the media to get up manu's backside and they take it. Until City got taken over and started to look a threat pretty much every manu fan would hate Liverpool more than City who they saw as insiginificant.

 

Far more passion, hatred etc in Barca-Madrid, Celtic-Rangers, Bocca-River Plate, Roma-Lazio, Milan Derby etc and us and the mackems to name a few.

 

Yup.

[brummiemag1 0]

Course it isn't, but any chance for the media to get up manu's backside and they take it. Until City got taken over and started to look a threat pretty much every manu fan would hate Liverpool more than City who they saw as insiginificant.

 

Far more passion, hatred etc in Barca-Madrid, Celtic-Rangers, Bocca-River Plate, Roma-Lazio, Milan Derby etc and us and the mackems to name a few.

 

Agree. Red Star - Partisan would be well up there as well

Edited January 28, 2010 by brummiemag1

[Guest Stevie]

Course it isn't, but any chance for the media to get up manu's backside and they take it. Until City got taken over and started to look a threat pretty much every manu fan would hate Liverpool more than City who they saw as insiginificant.

 

Far more passion, hatred etc in Barca-Madrid, Celtic-Rangers, Bocca-River Plate, Roma-Lazio, Milan Derby etc and us and the mackems to name a few.

 

Agree. Red Star - Partisan would be well up there as well

There's a lot of bollocks written about what is a big derby etc... I refuse to accept Red Star v Partizan as a big derby, how can a city of 3m people have a derby that's classed as big when every time they play each other there's 30,000 empty spaces at the game. Similarly Galatasaray v Fenerbahce, till about 20 years ago that league was not a higher standard than the LOI. There was a European Basketball Final on more than 15 years ago involving Turkey which coincided with an Istanbul derby. The crowd at the match 5,000, showing exactly where their priorities lie. The two most consistently passionate football nations on earth are Argentina and England (well Britain because football in Scotland is every bit as important in life as it is here), and that's it.

[peasepud 59]

calling the Man U / City derby huge and passionate is just the Manc medias way of passing off the hooliganism.

[Kevin 1]

[scully 0]

Biggest In Manchester thats all

[Papa Lazaru 0]

calling the Man U / City derby huge and passionate is just the Manc medias way of passing off the hooliganism.

 

Yeah, haven't seen much fuss made of Bellamy being pelted with coins and bottles by the corner flag, its like it doesn't really matter since manu fans did it.

Edited January 28, 2010 by Papa Lazaru

[Craig 6308]

It's not even the biggest derby in England. The biggest derbies are between sides on an equal level - Rangers v Celtic, Liverpool v Everton, Milan derby, etc.

 

Up until recently (currently in some small minded quarters) Man Utd fans didn't consider Citeh to be anywhere near them in stature. Traditional Mancs (those from Essex) even believe that their derby is against Liverpool!!!

[Kitman 2188]

River Plate v Boca Juniors - biggest derby on earth bar none nothing else is anywhere near it, arguably the two biggest clubs in South America, both from the same city and battle of aristocrat against pauper, rich against poor, it divides a nation of 38m people, and as part of the build up on TV they even have film crews following the firms live. Nothing is on the same planet as that game.

 

I think Barca v Real Madrid is massive because it's about so much more than football. It's about Catalan culture and independence, General Franco, years of repression, rivalry between cities and nations which for many years could only find an outlet in footy. Then there's the years of footballing rivalry, two massive clubs on the world stage pitted against each other, the high profile of these super clubs, the players that play and have played for them, the success that they've had and continue to have, the money involved etc.

 

Not disputing what you're saying as I don't know anything about the Argie lot, but I wonder whether they have the same glamour and worldwide interest as the Spanish clubs, or whether there's the same cultural and historical dimension as Barca vs Real Madrid?

 

The Manchester derby doesn't even come close and I doubt many foreigners know who Citeh are.

[Guest Stevie]

River Plate v Boca Juniors - biggest derby on earth bar none nothing else is anywhere near it, arguably the two biggest clubs in South America, both from the same city and battle of aristocrat against pauper, rich against poor, it divides a nation of 38m people, and as part of the build up on TV they even have film crews following the firms live. Nothing is on the same planet as that game.

 

I think Barca v Real Madrid is massive because it's about so much more than football. It's about Catalan culture and independence, General Franco, years of repression, rivalry between cities and nations which for many years could only find an outlet in footy. Then there's the years of footballing rivalry, two massive clubs on the world stage pitted against each other, the high profile of these super clubs, the players that play and have played for them, the success that they've had and continue to have, the money involved etc.

Not disputing what you're saying as I don't know anything about the Argie lot, but I wonder whether they have the same glamour and worldwide interest as the Spanish clubs, or whether there's the same cultural and historical dimension as Barca vs Real Madrid?

 

The Manchester derby doesn't even come close and I doubt many foreigners know who Citeh are.

It's a big game of course it is, but it's not a derby, even loosely.

 

Culturally River v Boca is as big as it gets and it's all in one city. River is the club of the rich, Boca of the inner city poor, they founded along those lines. In terms of passion, it absolutely annihilates Barca v Royal. Argentinian league is the oldest none British League, its' history dwarfs Spanish football. If England and Brazil are the two biggest footballing countries in the world, I class Argentina as third. They have won 64 league titles between them in a competitive league. In fact I'll qualify my statement further about my opinion that Argentina is the third most important football nation in the world, I think importance/population they are number one.

 

Superclásico is the name used to describe the football match in Argentina between Buenos Aires rivals Boca Juniors and River Plate. It derives from the Spanish usage of "clásico" to mean derby, with the prefix "super" used as the two clubs are the most popular and successful clubs in Argentine football. According to some statistics, commandeering more than 70% of all Argentine football fans between them,[1][dead link] with Boca claiming 40% and River 32%.[2]

 

The Superclásico is known worldwide as one of the fiercest and most important derbies.[3] In April 2004, the English newspaper The Observer put the Superclásico at the top of their list of "50 sporting things you must do before you die", saying that "Derby day in Buenos Aires makes the Old Firm game look like a primary school kick-about."[4]

 

 

Contents

[hide]

 

Origins and background

 

The two clubs both have origins in La Boca, the working class dockland area of Buenos Aires, with River being founded in 1901 and Boca in 1905. However, River moved to the affluent district of Núñez in the north of the city in 1925. Since then Boca Juniors has been known as the club of Argentina's working class or the people's club, with many Boca fans coming from the local Italian immigrant community. Boca fans are actually known as Xeneizes (Genoese).[2] By contrast, River Plate became known by the nickname, Los Millonarios (The Millionaires), with a supposedly upper-class support base.[3] Both clubs do though have supporters from all social classes.[2]

 

The first ever recorded Superclásico was a friendly played on 2 August 1908, when Boca prevailed 2-1. The first official match was played on 24 August 1913, with River winning 2-1.[5]

 

The Superclásico is particularly noted for the passion of the fans, with what the BBC describe as "a sea of colourful flowing banners, screams and roars, chanting, dancing and never-ending fireworks."[3] Both sets of supporters sing passionate chants aimed at their rivals, often based on popular Argentine rock band tunes. Each stadium, Boca's La Bombonera and River's El Monumental are known to bounce with the simultaneous jumping of the fans. At times the matches have been known to end in fights between the violent factions on both sides or with the police.[6][dead link]

 

Boca fans refer to River supporters as gallinas (chickens) claiming the lack of guts of River fans and players. Despite the fact that their club traces back its roots to La Boca, River fans refer to their Boca rivals as los chanchitos (little pigs) because they claim their stadium, located in the less affluent La Boca area, smells most of the time[3], as well as bosteros (manure collectors) a reference to the smell of a polluted river in La Boca.[2] Another infamous slur, coined in the late 1990s over remarks of Boca's forward Diego Latorre, is to brand Boca Juniors as "The Cabaret", due to the alleged aspiration of some players to steal the limelight.[7]

 

The rivalry between the two clubs can also affect players, particularly those who are transferred between the two clubs. Cataldo Spitale was the first to make the change, when he left Boca to sign for River in 1933. Oscar Ruggeri, who moved to River from Boca in 1985 said, "It's not easy I can tell you. One side looks on you as a traitor and the other doesn't really trust you. You need time to adapt and a lot of character to win people over." Some players have gone so far as to state that they would not play for the other club such as River's Uruguayan player Enzo Francescoli while Diego Maradona during his time playing for Argentinos Juniors, refused to even consider a move to El Monumental, stating that his dream was to play for Boca.[8]

[edit] Puerta 12 tragedy

 

On 23 June 1968 in El Monumental after a match between the two teams 71 fans were killed in a crush at gate 12 and 150 fans injured. The disaster was the worst football related incident in the history of Argentine football and the majority of the dead were teenagers and young adults. The average age of the victims was 19.

 

There are various claims as to what exactly happened that day. Some claim that the disaster happened after Boca Juniors fans threw burning River flags from the upper tiers of the stadium, causing a stampede of their own fans in the lower tier.[9]

 

Others claim that it happened after River fans arrived at the Boca section, causing the stampede of the visiting fans. Yet others claim that gate 12 was locked, or would not open at the time, and that the fans at the back did not hear the ones at the front telling them to stop coming out. William Kent, River's former president, claimed that the police were the culprits, as they began repressing Boca fans after they had thrown urine at them from the stands. Some witnesses claim that the turnstiles to the exit were blocked by a huge iron pole.[10]

 

After three years of investigation a government enquiry found no-one guilty, much to the disappointment of the families of the victims. Since the tragedy, the gates at El Monumental have been identified by letters instead of numbers.[11]

 

At the end of the 1968 season the 68 football clubs in the Argentine Football Association collected 100,000 pesos for the families of the deceased.

[edit] Statistics

[edit] Head to Head

 

Match record as of October 25, 2009

Championship Played Boca Draws River

National League 185 67 57 61

Amateur Matches 12 3 4 5

International Competitions 24 10 8 6

Friendlies & other 104 39 33 32

Total 325 119 102 104

 

Source:statistics at RSSSF and ESPN Deportes statistics

 

[edit] Most appearances

Player Games Club

Reinaldo Merlo 42 River

Hugo Gatti 38 both

Silvio Marzolini 37 Boca

Ángel Labruna 35 River

Roberto Mouzo 35 Boca

 

Source: ESPN Deportes statistics

 

[edit] Top scorers

Player Goals Club

Ángel Labruna 16 River

Oscar Más 12 River

Paulo Valentim 10 Boca

Carlos Manuel Morete 9 River

Bernabé Ferreyra 8 River

Martín Palermo* 8 Boca

Hugo Alberto Curioni 7 Boca

Osvaldo Potente 7 Boca

Diego Latorre 6 Boca

Alfredo Rojas 6 Boca

Francisco Varallo 6 Boca

Norberto Alonso 6 River

 

Asterisk denotes player is still active

 

[edit] Biggest wins

Result Date

Boca 6-0 River 23 December 1928

River 5-1 Boca 19 October 1941

River 4-0 Boca 19 July 1942

River 0-4 Boca 17 August 1955

Boca 5-1 River 19 May 1959

River 1-5 Boca 7 March 1982

 

Sources: RSSSF and ESPN Deportes statistics

 

[edit] Highest scoring games

Result Date

River 5-4 Boca 15 October 1972

River 5-3 Boca 24 November 1957

Boca 5-2 River 27 June 1973

Boca 5-2 River 3 February 1974

Boca 2-5 River 2 March 1980

Boca 4-3 River 27 February 1991

 

Sources: RSSSF and ESPN Deportes statistics

 

[edit] Players to have played for both clubs

 

Please note - this is a non-exhaustive list of players to have played for both clubs

 

 

* Gabriel Amato

* Abel Balbo

* Carlos Barisio

* Gabriel Batistuta

* Sergio Berti

* Fernando Cáceres

* Julio César Cáceres

* Claudio Caniggia

* Gabriel Cedrés

* Victorio Cocco

* Rubén da Silva

 

 

 

* Luciano Figueroa

* Rubén Horacio Galletti

* Fernando Gamboa

* Ricardo Gareca

* Hugo Gatti

* Jorge Higuaín

* Juan Francisco Lombardo

* Juan José López

* Ernesto Mastrángelo

* Milton Melgar

* Norberto Menéndez

* José Manuel Moreno

 

 

 

* Carlos Manuel Morete

* Julio Olarticoechea

* Juan José Pizzuti

* Sebastián Rambert

* Gerardo Reinoso

* Jorge Rinaldi

* Oscar Ruggeri

* Francisco Sá

* Carlos Daniel Tapia

* Alberto Tarantini

* Julio César Toresani

* Nelson Vivas

 

[edit] River's greatest moments

 

* August 13, 1913: River won the first official Superclásico 2-1.

* October 19, 1941: The River team of the 1940s known as "La Máquina" beat Boca 5-1, their biggest win over Boca, on their way to the Argentine championship.

* July 19, 1942: River won 4-0, equalling their biggest win over Boca.

* February 10, 1966: River won 2-1 at El Monumental in the first ever meeting of the clubs in international competition.

* October 15, 1972: River came back from 4-2 down to win 5-4 in the highest scoring Superclásico in history.

* November 9, 1977: River came back from 1-0 down in La Bombonera to win 2-1 with a last minute goal from a 40 meters dash of Pedro Alexis Gonzalez, securing River's top position in the 1977 Metropolitano championship, which they won in the next round.

* April 6, 1986: In a game remembered for the fact that it was played with an orange ball, River won 2-0 at La Bombonera right after winning the 1985–86 championship.

* July 27, 1989: River won 2-1 the requalifying final of the 1989 Liguilla pre-Libertadores preventing Boca's qualification for Copa Libertadores 1990.

* December 11, 1994: River won 3-0 at La Bombonera, clinching the 1994 Apertura.

* March 23, 1997: River came back from 3-0 at El Monumental to draw 3-3 costing Boca a famous win.

* March 10, 2002: River won 3-0 at La Bombonera on their way to win the 2002 Clausura.

* May 16, 2004: River won 1-0 a decisive match at La Bombonera with a goal from Fernando Cavenaghi, paving the way to win the 2004 Clausura.

* October 8, 2006: River beat Boca 3-1 at El Monumental, breaking a 22 matches record without defeats.

* October 7, 2007: River won 2-0 at home to prevent Boca from going top of the table and damaged their chances of winning the 2007 Apertura.

 

[edit] Boca's greatest moments

 

* August 2, 1908: Boca won the first Superclásico ever 2-1.

* May 19, 1959: After 18 years Boca avenged their 5-1 defeat by River with a 5-1 win at La Bombonera with two goals from Jose Yudica.

* December 9, 1962: Boca defeated River 1-0 at La Bombonera to secure the top position of 1962 championship, which they won in the next round.

* February 3, 1974: Carlos García Cambón scored four goals on his Boca debut in a 5-2 win, the most goals scored by a single player in the Superclásico. It was also Boca's second successive 5-2 win.

* December 22, 1976: Boca won the first ever final between the two clubs 1-0 to claim the 1976 Nacional.[12]

* April 10, 1981: Boca won 3-0 on their way to winning the 1981 Metropolitano championship.

* March 7, 1982: Boca won 5-1 at El Monumental, in the 1982 Nacional championship, the biggest away win in the history of the Superclásico.

* March 31, 1991: Boca won its fifth consecutive derby of the year 1-0 at La Bombonera.

* July 14, 1996: Claudio Caniggia scored a hat-trick to help Boca win 4-1 at La Bombonera, barely a month after River won Copa Libertadores.

* May 24, 2000: Having lost the first leg of the 2000 Copa Libertadores quarter-final 2-1 at El Monumental, Boca won 3-0 at home to progress to the semi-final and later go on to win the competition. Boca's third goal was scored by substitute Martín Palermo after a six-month injury.

* November 9, 2003: Boca, then Championships of Copa Libertadores 2003 won 2-0 at El Monumental with goals scored by Brazilian striker Iarley and Sebastián Battaglia.

* June 17, 2004: Having won the first leg of the 2004 Copa Libertadores semi-final 1-0 at La Bombonera, Boca went to El Monumental, where River scored first. With just five minutes left Carlos Tévez scored to level the score 1-1 and so give Boca a 2-1 aggregate lead. However, a last-minute goal by Cristián Nasuti for River took the match to penalties. Boca then won the penalty shootout 5-4.

Yeah I'd say it has some history.

 

 

As Maradona said inigualado anywhere in the world.

Edited January 28, 2010 by Stevie

[Kitman 2188]

Righto I'm convinced

 

Interesting that you don't view Barca vs Real as a derby. Whilst I typically think of derbies as same city affairs, I've always thought of it as a derby, mainly due to the press reporting of it as such.

[PaddockLad 14638]

Manchester derby the biggest?

 

For me, and I take Stevie's points completley about Boca v River Plate (these things are entirely subjective), this is the daddy:

 

 

This is where a decade of civil war in the Balkans started, Dinamo Zagreb v Red Star Belgrade...obviously a lot more to it than football; WW 1 starting in nearby Bosnia and all the history of the peoples of the Ottoman Empire being at each others throats.....Serbia's traditional support of Russia and Marshal Tito, leader of Yugoslavia from WW 2 till his death in the late 80s....the subsequent collapse of communist power in Eastern Europe in general and the old emeneties and hatreds re surfacing....which all led to this game in 1991. The Red Star Ultras basically became the warlord Arkan's paramilitary militia " The Tigers", similarlary the Dianmo's "BBB's" (Bad Blue Boys) went off to join the Croatian army. This game kicked it all off. Couldnt find any footage of the Dinamo players having it with the Belgrade riot police, but theres a legendary shot of one of them doing a flying kick into a fully armoured goon and flattening the fucker..Bosko Balaban?

 

Don't know if you'd call this a "derby" (as I say very subjective) as such but there was a terrific rivalry between these clubs during the years of the Yugoslavian league and at it's culmination it kicked off a decade long civil war. Thats wat I call a derby

 

(If anyones interested, Simon Kuper's "Football Against The Enemy" gives a very good account of what happened)

[Guest alex]

Righto I'm convinced

 

Interesting that you don't view Barca vs Real as a derby. Whilst I typically think of derbies as same city affairs, I've always thought of it as a derby, mainly due to the press reporting of it as such.

Doesn't have to be same city or owt but it has to be 'local'. Madrid's about 200 mile from Barcelona though isn't it? It's a bigger match though. Anyway, this isn't even the biggest derby involving ManYoo iyam.

[Guest Stevie]

Manchester derby the biggest?

 

For me, and I take Stevie's points completley about Boca v River Plate (these things are entirely subjective), this is the daddy:

 

 

This is where a decade of civil war in the Balkans started, Dinamo Zagreb v Red Star Belgrade...obviously a lot more to it than football; WW 1 starting in nearby Bosnia and all the history of the peoples of the Ottoman Empire being at each others throats.....Serbia's traditional support of Russia and Marshal Tito, leader of Yugoslavia from WW 2 till his death in the late 80s....the subsequent collapse of communist power in Eastern Europe in general and the old emeneties and hatreds re surfacing....which all led to this game in 1991. The Red Star Ultras basically became the warlord Arkan's paramilitary militia " The Tigers", similarlary the Dianmo's "BBB's" (Bad Blue Boys) went off to join the Croatian army. This game kicked it all off. Couldnt find any footage of the Dinamo players having it with the Belgrade riot police, but theres a legendary shot of one of them doing a flying kick into a fully armoured goon and flattening the fucker..Bosko Balaban?

 

Don't know if you'd call this a "derby" (as I say very subjective) as such but there was a terrific rivalry between these clubs during the years of the Yugoslavian league and at it's culmination it kicked off a decade long civil war. Thats wat I call a derby

(If anyones interested, Simon Kuper's "Football Against The Enemy" gives a very good account of what happened)

I've got that book somewhere, them games represented country rivalries as much as anything else. Is there a passage about Bryne and SK Brann and their rivalry? The Superclasico is a pure football wankfest.

[PaddockLad 14638]

I've got that book somewhere, them games represented country rivalries as much as anything else. Is there a passage about Bryne and SK Brann and their rivalry? The Superclasico is a pure football wankfest.

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Football-Against-E...r/dp/0752848771

 

Yeah the superclassico is very much social division fought out on grass as opposed to ethnic hatred

[AmericanMag 0]

Agree with the Boca v. River Plate statements. I would also say Olympiakos v. Panathanaikos is pretty much the same way... Olympiakos being the working class from the docks in Iraeus and Panathanaikos being the upper class team.

[sammynb 2929]

 

Stevie, if only you could make that good of an arse of yourself more often!

You really should include both the major Brazilian derbies, the Fla-Flu and the Paulista derby, in the top derby matches in the world.