Old Board vs New Board

[Guest alex]

Name one club not not running at a loss or which is currently debt free then.

 

 

Why? What point would that prove?

It would prove how basic it all is if it were the norm for PL clubs.

[Guest]

I don't really understand what you're asking me..

 

Done what all the way through?

I thought you were outlining the way forward. I concede a lot of what you say re: the old regime. I just don't get the love for the new lot when they've made things worse through what was obviously their own doing.

 

 

I do concede that the new lot have made things worse in the short-term but I'm trying not to be short-sighted about it. I don't love them. I just think their overall goal of sorting the clubs finances out is something that is needed to make a fresh start. The club had wasted too much money and had too much deadwood on the books. I never thought throwing money at the team in the state it was in would be effective. We were stuck in mediocrity with players on 100k+ p/w, without a big clearout and a temporary step backwards we'd have been stuck in the same rut.

 

I do have concerns about their intentions once the club does become profitable, if they achieve that, but at the same time I think we'll be in a much healthier position to attract outside investors or potential buyers too.

[Tom 13894]

Toon Chat was canny like but I think we are in a different league now.

[Guest]

Name one club not not running at a loss or which is currently debt free then.

 

 

Why? What point would that prove?

It would prove how basic it all is if it were the norm for PL clubs.

 

 

But I don't disagree with manageable debt.

[Guest alex]

I don't really understand what you're asking me..

 

Done what all the way through?

I thought you were outlining the way forward. I concede a lot of what you say re: the old regime. I just don't get the love for the new lot when they've made things worse through what was obviously their own doing.

 

 

I do concede that the new lot have made things worse in the short-term but I'm trying not to be short-sighted about it. I don't love them. I just think their overall goal of sorting the clubs finances out is something that is needed to make a fresh start. The club had wasted too much money and had too much deadwood on the books. I never thought throwing money at the team in the state it was in would be effective. We were stuck in mediocrity with players on 100k+ p/w, without a big clearout and a temporary step backwards we'd have been stuck in the same rut.

I do have concerns about their intentions once the club does become profitable, if they achieve that, but at the same time I think we'll be in a much healthier position to attract outside investors or potential buyers too.

How did getting in Alan Smith, Kevin Nolan, Collocini, Gutierrez, Joey Barton, Xisco et al on big wages fit into this alleged plan?

[Guest]

I don't really understand what you're asking me..

 

Done what all the way through?

I thought you were outlining the way forward. I concede a lot of what you say re: the old regime. I just don't get the love for the new lot when they've made things worse through what was obviously their own doing.

 

 

I do concede that the new lot have made things worse in the short-term but I'm trying not to be short-sighted about it. I don't love them. I just think their overall goal of sorting the clubs finances out is something that is needed to make a fresh start. The club had wasted too much money and had too much deadwood on the books. I never thought throwing money at the team in the state it was in would be effective. We were stuck in mediocrity with players on 100k+ p/w, without a big clearout and a temporary step backwards we'd have been stuck in the same rut.

I do have concerns about their intentions once the club does become profitable, if they achieve that, but at the same time I think we'll be in a much healthier position to attract outside investors or potential buyers too.

How did getting in Alan Smith, Kevin Nolan, Collocini, Gutierrez, Joey Barton, Xisco et al on big wages fit into this alleged plan?

 

It didn't, the plan changed somewhat when he decided to spit his dummy out after the Keegan fallout. We signed those players when he was playing the jolly fat man begging for attention. So now we've got to do our business without being his plaything, and without being financially strong, we won't ever be in a position to compete.

[Phil 6]

I don't really understand what you're asking me..

 

Done what all the way through?

I thought you were outlining the way forward. I concede a lot of what you say re: the old regime. I just don't get the love for the new lot when they've made things worse through what was obviously their own doing.

 

 

I do concede that the new lot have made things worse in the short-term but I'm trying not to be short-sighted about it. I don't love them. I just think their overall goal of sorting the clubs finances out is something that is needed to make a fresh start. The club had wasted too much money and had too much deadwood on the books. I never thought throwing money at the team in the state it was in would be effective. We were stuck in mediocrity with players on 100k+ p/w, without a big clearout and a temporary step backwards we'd have been stuck in the same rut.

I do have concerns about their intentions once the club does become profitable, if they achieve that, but at the same time I think we'll be in a much healthier position to attract outside investors or potential buyers too.

How did getting in Alan Smith, Kevin Nolan, Collocini, Gutierrez, Joey Barton, Xisco et al on big wages fit into this alleged plan?

 

 

Pretty sure the only ones on big wages were signed by Mort and Fat Sam.

 

Hence Dekka's arrival. Bassong 5k, Gutherie 5k, Milner put in a transfer request over wages, Salyor dragging his feet. I dont reckon Xisco, Nolan and Collocini are on anywhere near Smith and Barton's salary.

 

Afra shows they are still willing to pay the going rate. But Moses not signing show we wont be bent over a barrel again.

[Guest alex]

Just think about what you're saying there. Ashley had us down as a plaything and now he wants to work within a much tighter budget because he got pissed off at the fans' reaction when KK walked. Forgive me if I'm not reassured he has a workable plan or the club's best interests at heart.

[Guest alex]

I don't really understand what you're asking me..

 

Done what all the way through?

I thought you were outlining the way forward. I concede a lot of what you say re: the old regime. I just don't get the love for the new lot when they've made things worse through what was obviously their own doing.

 

 

I do concede that the new lot have made things worse in the short-term but I'm trying not to be short-sighted about it. I don't love them. I just think their overall goal of sorting the clubs finances out is something that is needed to make a fresh start. The club had wasted too much money and had too much deadwood on the books. I never thought throwing money at the team in the state it was in would be effective. We were stuck in mediocrity with players on 100k+ p/w, without a big clearout and a temporary step backwards we'd have been stuck in the same rut.

I do have concerns about their intentions once the club does become profitable, if they achieve that, but at the same time I think we'll be in a much healthier position to attract outside investors or potential buyers too.

How did getting in Alan Smith, Kevin Nolan, Collocini, Gutierrez, Joey Barton, Xisco et al on big wages fit into this alleged plan?

 

 

Pretty sure the only ones on big wages were signed by Mort and Fat Sam.

 

Hence Dekka's arrival. Bassong 5k, Gutherie 5k, Milner put in a transfer request over wages, Salyor dragging his feet. I dont reckon Xisco, Nolan and Collocini are on anywhere near Smith and Barton's salary.

 

Afra shows they are still willing to pay the going rate. But Moses not signing show we wont be bent over a barrel again.

Even if that were true, he was the owner. But it isn't true anyway since many came after Mort had gone. Colo's wages are a reported £80k per week, with Xisco on something ridiculous and Gutierrez too (different tax laws mean they'd have to be high anyway to meet or improve upon what they were getting in Spain - Matt knows more about this than me). So I think you're 'wide of the mark' there Phyllis.

Edited September 15, 2010 by alex

[Guest]

Just think about what you're saying there. Ashley had us down as a plaything and now he wants to work within a much tighter budget because he got pissed off at the fans' reaction when KK walked. Forgive me if I'm not reassured he has a workable plan or the club's best interests at heart.

 

 

He wants rid of us. The best way to get rid of us is to put us in a healthy and secure position. If he doesn't have the club's best interests at heart then he's only shooting himself in the foot. He's made plenty of mistakes, but making an unworkable business plan up for his own business because he's pissed off with the fans isn't something I'm worried about. Bankrolling us had to stop as soon as he realised he wanted out, otherwise he'll never be able to sell us.

[LeazesMag 0]

Our debt to MA is 111m, it would have been 30m less if he hadn't got us relegated.

 

Our debt to our owner ...

 

 

 

Not sure why people are discussing other clubs being run badly. While there are loads of businesses that manage their debt, it's a very bad practise, especially when it costs millions to service.

 

because we want to compete with them on the pitch and realise that is where upward momentum begins, at least some of us do, rather than turn up and study the balance sheet every other saturday.

[LeazesMag 0]

Now, do you see how the big clubs have a positive 'operating profit', that means they can afford their debt. Surely the way forward is to aim to be like these clubs. Surely the way to be like these clubs is to ensure that the club operates with a profit, not a loss. Surely the way to achieve this is to not get into a position where you need success to achieve an operating profit. Surely if you're low in the table, get into a position of having an operating profit, then you are then in a position to be able to strengthen, with borrowed cash, and the means to pay it back. Surely the dangerous approach is to take on debt, with no profits to cover repayments, meaning that failure to produce on the pitch makes the debt increase.

 

 

Pretty basic stuff when you strip it down.

Sounds like the much vaunted five year plan. Any idea when it's kicking off?

 

[LeazesMag 0]

Just think about what you're saying there. Ashley had us down as a plaything and now he wants to work within a much tighter budget because he got pissed off at the fans' reaction when KK walked. Forgive me if I'm not reassured he has a workable plan or the club's best interests at heart.

 

 

He wants rid of us.

 

and some of us want rid of the fat cunt too.

[Guest alex]

Just think about what you're saying there. Ashley had us down as a plaything and now he wants to work within a much tighter budget because he got pissed off at the fans' reaction when KK walked. Forgive me if I'm not reassured he has a workable plan or the club's best interests at heart.

 

 

He wants rid of us. The best way to get rid of us is to put us in a healthy and secure position. If he doesn't have the club's best interests at heart then he's only shooting himself in the foot. He's made plenty of mistakes, but making an unworkable business plan up for his own business because he's pissed off with the fans isn't something I'm worried about. Bankrolling us had to stop as soon as he realised he wanted out, otherwise he'll never be able to sell us.

We'll have to see. I sincerely hope it works out that way but I don't have faith in his ability to do so. I also see us flirting with relegation or worse - i.e. being a yo-yo club in the time it takes him to recoup his investment. I never bought the '£100m all in' price that the club was supposedly available for last summer either so it's not like he's desperate to get rid, more just taking the long view. But that's a long view to getting the most money back and fuck competing on the pitch at the right end of the table imo. Quite apart from that it's difficult for me to trust in the business plan of a guy who buys a club without having a proper look at the books. That's before taking into account the many mistakes since then.

Edited September 15, 2010 by alex

[Guest]

Aye, I'm not all that confident that we'll be competing at the right end for a while either alex, and I'm not even sure whether he has the ambition to want to. But I do know that that doesn't mean that Shepherd would have had us back in europe by now. We were a sinking ship under him. Ashley didn't take a champions league club down, he failed to stop a decline that was already in place. Admittedly his shenanigans with Keegan, Wise and JFK were a big part of the problem that got us relegated, but the culture of having highly paid unmotivated players would have gotten to us eventually anyway, it had taken over us and when there's a culture like that at the club, usually-good players coming in adapt to it and it becomes infectious. Watching those players was disheartening to me, even if they had more ability than the ones we have now. I don't think Ashley is the bee's knees, but I'm not going to wank over Shepherd and pretend that he was, just because Mike isn't.

[Guest alex]

Aye, I'm not all that confident that we'll be competing at the right end for a while either alex, and I'm not even sure whether he has the ambition to want to. But I do know that that doesn't mean that Shepherd would have had us back in europe by now. We were a sinking ship under him. Ashley didn't take a champions league club down, he failed to stop a decline that was already in place. Admittedly his shenanigans with Keegan, Wise and JFK were a big part of the problem that got us relegated, but the culture of having highly paid unmotivated players would have gotten to us eventually anyway, it had taken over us and when there's a culture like that at the club, usually-good players coming in adapt to it and it becomes infectious. Watching those players was disheartening to me, even if they had more ability than the ones we have now. I don't think Ashley is the bee's knees, but I'm not going to wank over Shepherd and pretend that he was, just because Mike isn't.

Wouldn't disagree with any of that. We needed a change in ownership at the time we got one. We just didn't need the change we got, obviously. The daft thing is that if Ashley had come in and implemented some of what he's doing now (and spent a bit of money, but less than he's probably lost ironically) we'd probably be in pretty good shape now. He'd have been able to manage the expectations with ease with some honesty.

[LeazesMag 0]

Aye, I'm not all that confident that we'll be competing at the right end for a while either alex, and I'm not even sure whether he has the ambition to want to. But I do know that that doesn't mean that Shepherd would have had us back in europe by now. We were a sinking ship under him. Ashley didn't take a champions league club down, he failed to stop a decline that was already in place. Admittedly his shenanigans with Keegan, Wise and JFK were a big part of the problem that got us relegated, but the culture of having highly paid unmotivated players would have gotten to us eventually anyway, it had taken over us and when there's a culture like that at the club, usually-good players coming in adapt to it and it becomes infectious. Watching those players was disheartening to me, even if they had more ability than the ones we have now. I don't think Ashley is the bee's knees, but I'm not going to wank over Shepherd and pretend that he was, just because Mike isn't.

 

thompers in meltdown

 

The Halls and Shepherd took over a club in a massive decline by the way, and within a few years they were in europe.

[JawD 31]

Aye, I'm not all that confident that we'll be competing at the right end for a while either alex, and I'm not even sure whether he has the ambition to want to. But I do know that that doesn't mean that Shepherd would have had us back in europe by now. We were a sinking ship under him. Ashley didn't take a champions league club down, he failed to stop a decline that was already in place. Admittedly his shenanigans with Keegan, Wise and JFK were a big part of the problem that got us relegated, but the culture of having highly paid unmotivated players would have gotten to us eventually anyway, it had taken over us and when there's a culture like that at the club, usually-good players coming in adapt to it and it becomes infectious. Watching those players was disheartening to me, even if they had more ability than the ones we have now. I don't think Ashley is the bee's knees, but I'm not going to wank over Shepherd and pretend that he was, just because Mike isn't.

 

Pretty much agree with that. Yes, SJH done wonders for this club. As LM points out, we were sinking fast before SJH took over. But, its also correct that we were again sinking at the end of Shepherds reign. Each year it felt we were slowly dropping to hit relegation. I doubt Ashley will ever hit the heights that the previous bunch did, but then the league is a very different place now. when we were promoted with KK at the helm, the league was nowhere near the quality it is now. I dont think Ashley is a patch on SJH, but lets not think SJH done it for the love either. He could see what Ashley cannot. that by making a successful club he could get back his investment several fold. It is a gamble though as you are not the only club trying that. I think our gamble failed when we were put out of the Champions League by Partizan.

[ChezGiven 0]

Aye, I'm not all that confident that we'll be competing at the right end for a while either alex, and I'm not even sure whether he has the ambition to want to. But I do know that that doesn't mean that Shepherd would have had us back in europe by now. We were a sinking ship under him. Ashley didn't take a champions league club down, he failed to stop a decline that was already in place. Admittedly his shenanigans with Keegan, Wise and JFK were a big part of the problem that got us relegated, but the culture of having highly paid unmotivated players would have gotten to us eventually anyway, it had taken over us and when there's a culture like that at the club, usually-good players coming in adapt to it and it becomes infectious. Watching those players was disheartening to me, even if they had more ability than the ones we have now. I don't think Ashley is the bee's knees, but I'm not going to wank over Shepherd and pretend that he was, just because Mike isn't.

 

Pretty much agree with that. Yes, SJH done wonders for this club. As LM points out, we were sinking fast before SJH took over. But, its also correct that we were again sinking at the end of Shepherds reign. Each year it felt we were slowly dropping to hit relegation. I doubt Ashley will ever hit the heights that the previous bunch did, but then the league is a very different place now. when we were promoted with KK at the helm, the league was nowhere near the quality it is now. I dont think Ashley is a patch on SJH, but lets not think SJH done it for the love either. He could see what Ashley cannot. that by making a successful club he could get back his investment several fold. It is a gamble though as you are not the only club trying that. I think our gamble failed when we were put out of the Champions League by Partizan.

 

3m in, 200m out. Thats a return for you.

[Guest]

Aye, I'm not all that confident that we'll be competing at the right end for a while either alex, and I'm not even sure whether he has the ambition to want to. But I do know that that doesn't mean that Shepherd would have had us back in europe by now. We were a sinking ship under him. Ashley didn't take a champions league club down, he failed to stop a decline that was already in place. Admittedly his shenanigans with Keegan, Wise and JFK were a big part of the problem that got us relegated, but the culture of having highly paid unmotivated players would have gotten to us eventually anyway, it had taken over us and when there's a culture like that at the club, usually-good players coming in adapt to it and it becomes infectious. Watching those players was disheartening to me, even if they had more ability than the ones we have now. I don't think Ashley is the bee's knees, but I'm not going to wank over Shepherd and pretend that he was, just because Mike isn't.

 

thompers in meltdown

 

The Halls and Shepherd took over a club in a massive decline by the way, and within a few years they were in europe.

 

 

Where do I say they didn't?

 

You thick irritating old fuck.

[Guest]

Aye, I'm not all that confident that we'll be competing at the right end for a while either alex, and I'm not even sure whether he has the ambition to want to. But I do know that that doesn't mean that Shepherd would have had us back in europe by now. We were a sinking ship under him. Ashley didn't take a champions league club down, he failed to stop a decline that was already in place. Admittedly his shenanigans with Keegan, Wise and JFK were a big part of the problem that got us relegated, but the culture of having highly paid unmotivated players would have gotten to us eventually anyway, it had taken over us and when there's a culture like that at the club, usually-good players coming in adapt to it and it becomes infectious. Watching those players was disheartening to me, even if they had more ability than the ones we have now. I don't think Ashley is the bee's knees, but I'm not going to wank over Shepherd and pretend that he was, just because Mike isn't.

 

Pretty much agree with that. Yes, SJH done wonders for this club. As LM points out, we were sinking fast before SJH took over. But, its also correct that we were again sinking at the end of Shepherds reign. Each year it felt we were slowly dropping to hit relegation. I doubt Ashley will ever hit the heights that the previous bunch did, but then the league is a very different place now. when we were promoted with KK at the helm, the league was nowhere near the quality it is now. I dont think Ashley is a patch on SJH, but lets not think SJH done it for the love either. He could see what Ashley cannot. that by making a successful club he could get back his investment several fold. It is a gamble though as you are not the only club trying that. I think our gamble failed when we were put out of the Champions League by Partizan.

 

 

I don't think it's a case of that mind, it's more of a case that it'd have took a hell of a lot more to get us back to europe when Ashley took over than what it cost Hall to do it. Remember there wasn't competition for the top 4 spots back then because the whole top 4 champions league incentive was introduced whilst we were already up there. Now that it's there and been there for a while, the competition for it is so intense that Ashley didn't have the luxury of being able to spend a little bit to get us there.

[LeazesMag 0]

Aye, I'm not all that confident that we'll be competing at the right end for a while either alex, and I'm not even sure whether he has the ambition to want to. But I do know that that doesn't mean that Shepherd would have had us back in europe by now. We were a sinking ship under him. Ashley didn't take a champions league club down, he failed to stop a decline that was already in place. Admittedly his shenanigans with Keegan, Wise and JFK were a big part of the problem that got us relegated, but the culture of having highly paid unmotivated players would have gotten to us eventually anyway, it had taken over us and when there's a culture like that at the club, usually-good players coming in adapt to it and it becomes infectious. Watching those players was disheartening to me, even if they had more ability than the ones we have now. I don't think Ashley is the bee's knees, but I'm not going to wank over Shepherd and pretend that he was, just because Mike isn't.

 

thompers in meltdown

 

The Halls and Shepherd took over a club in a massive decline by the way, and within a few years they were in europe.

 

 

Where do I say they didn't?

 

You thick irritating old fuck.

 

so you concede they were vastly superior to Mikey boy ?

 

[LeazesMag 0]

Aye, I'm not all that confident that we'll be competing at the right end for a while either alex, and I'm not even sure whether he has the ambition to want to. But I do know that that doesn't mean that Shepherd would have had us back in europe by now. We were a sinking ship under him. Ashley didn't take a champions league club down, he failed to stop a decline that was already in place. Admittedly his shenanigans with Keegan, Wise and JFK were a big part of the problem that got us relegated, but the culture of having highly paid unmotivated players would have gotten to us eventually anyway, it had taken over us and when there's a culture like that at the club, usually-good players coming in adapt to it and it becomes infectious. Watching those players was disheartening to me, even if they had more ability than the ones we have now. I don't think Ashley is the bee's knees, but I'm not going to wank over Shepherd and pretend that he was, just because Mike isn't.

 

Pretty much agree with that. Yes, SJH done wonders for this club. As LM points out, we were sinking fast before SJH took over. But, its also correct that we were again sinking at the end of Shepherds reign. Each year it felt we were slowly dropping to hit relegation. I doubt Ashley will ever hit the heights that the previous bunch did, but then the league is a very different place now. when we were promoted with KK at the helm, the league was nowhere near the quality it is now. I dont think Ashley is a patch on SJH, but lets not think SJH done it for the love either. He could see what Ashley cannot. that by making a successful club he could get back his investment several fold. It is a gamble though as you are not the only club trying that. I think our gamble failed when we were put out of the Champions League by Partizan.

 

 

I don't think it's a case of that mind, it's more of a case that it'd have took a hell of a lot more to get us back to europe when Ashley took over than what it cost Hall to do it. Remember there wasn't competition for the top 4 spots back then because the whole top 4 champions league incentive was introduced whilst we were already up there.

 

 

complete myth.

 

Clubs have ALWAYS wanted to finish as high as possible, play in europe, etc etc....and players gave it 100% just like any other time in the history of the game.

[Guest]

Aye, I'm not all that confident that we'll be competing at the right end for a while either alex, and I'm not even sure whether he has the ambition to want to. But I do know that that doesn't mean that Shepherd would have had us back in europe by now. We were a sinking ship under him. Ashley didn't take a champions league club down, he failed to stop a decline that was already in place. Admittedly his shenanigans with Keegan, Wise and JFK were a big part of the problem that got us relegated, but the culture of having highly paid unmotivated players would have gotten to us eventually anyway, it had taken over us and when there's a culture like that at the club, usually-good players coming in adapt to it and it becomes infectious. Watching those players was disheartening to me, even if they had more ability than the ones we have now. I don't think Ashley is the bee's knees, but I'm not going to wank over Shepherd and pretend that he was, just because Mike isn't.

 

Pretty much agree with that. Yes, SJH done wonders for this club. As LM points out, we were sinking fast before SJH took over. But, its also correct that we were again sinking at the end of Shepherds reign. Each year it felt we were slowly dropping to hit relegation. I doubt Ashley will ever hit the heights that the previous bunch did, but then the league is a very different place now. when we were promoted with KK at the helm, the league was nowhere near the quality it is now. I dont think Ashley is a patch on SJH, but lets not think SJH done it for the love either. He could see what Ashley cannot. that by making a successful club he could get back his investment several fold. It is a gamble though as you are not the only club trying that. I think our gamble failed when we were put out of the Champions League by Partizan.

 

 

I don't think it's a case of that mind, it's more of a case that it'd have took a hell of a lot more to get us back to europe when Ashley took over than what it cost Hall to do it. Remember there wasn't competition for the top 4 spots back then because the whole top 4 champions league incentive was introduced whilst we were already up there.

 

 

complete myth.

 

Clubs have ALWAYS wanted to finish as high as possible, play in europe, etc etc....and players gave it 100% just like any other time in the history of the game.

 

But both the Spanish and Italian leagues were superior to ours in the 90s, meaning the best players went there, meaning our league was of a poorer standard to what it is now. Are you getting it yet?

[Guest]

Aye, I'm not all that confident that we'll be competing at the right end for a while either alex, and I'm not even sure whether he has the ambition to want to. But I do know that that doesn't mean that Shepherd would have had us back in europe by now. We were a sinking ship under him. Ashley didn't take a champions league club down, he failed to stop a decline that was already in place. Admittedly his shenanigans with Keegan, Wise and JFK were a big part of the problem that got us relegated, but the culture of having highly paid unmotivated players would have gotten to us eventually anyway, it had taken over us and when there's a culture like that at the club, usually-good players coming in adapt to it and it becomes infectious. Watching those players was disheartening to me, even if they had more ability than the ones we have now. I don't think Ashley is the bee's knees, but I'm not going to wank over Shepherd and pretend that he was, just because Mike isn't.

 

thompers in meltdown

 

The Halls and Shepherd took over a club in a massive decline by the way, and within a few years they were in europe.

 

 

Where do I say they didn't?

 

You thick irritating old fuck.

 

so you concede they were vastly superior to Mikey boy ?

 

 

 

Does that mean Leeds board were vastly superior to the Halls and Shepherd? They got to a champions league semi final.