Rangers enter Administration

[Toonpack 6914]

you have indicated how disastrous going into administration would be, I have always pointed out to you a fairly straightforward point, which is that football clubs - especially the big ones - just don't go out of existence as much as you would like to make out this is so for your own reasons which are as obvious as the nose on your face.

 

Rangers had the success at the time, to disregard it all now is stupid, they enjoyed it at the time and those times cannot be taken away. Its like saying that Geoff Hurst's goal in the 1966 final didn't cross the line so its too late to celebrate. Stupid.

 

My point is quite simply that whether they broke the rules or not, it doesn't matter what we "think". While others ought to be shown they will be punished, if you think it will make football whiter than white in the future you are living in cloud cuckoo land, as usual.

 

Ok so cheating and fraud is fine, so long as you "enjoy it at the time" and the consequences are of no importance. The Rangers fans who've been going through the mincer since February-ish, are sure to agree !!!!!!! Especially if much of what they "enjoyed" is taken away.

 

Unbelievable.

[PaddockLad 14652]

you have indicated how disastrous going into administration would be, I have always pointed out to you a fairly straightforward point, which is that football clubs - especially the big ones - just don't go out of existence as much as you would like to make out this is so for your own reasons which are as obvious as the nose on your face.

 

Rangers had the success at the time, to disregard it all now is stupid, they enjoyed it at the time and those times cannot be taken away. Its like saying that Geoff Hurst's goal in the 1966 final didn't cross the line so its too late to celebrate. Stupid.

 

My point is quite simply that whether they broke the rules or not, it doesn't matter what we "think". While others ought to be shown they will be punished, if you think it will make football whiter than white in the future you are living in cloud cuckoo land, as usual.

 

If the players they bought to acheive those honours are proven to have been enticed to the club with illegal contracts then the last 25 years of RFC will count for nothing in the eyes of the SFA rulebook, other Scottish clubs, and their fans. Someone coined a phrase a few years back "financial doping"...thats exactly what this is. Drug cheats are stripped of their medals in the likes of athletics etc so there is a precident for it. What Geoff Hurst's goal in 66 has to do with it am not sure, he didnt cheat and neither did the officials, they made a decision during the course of a game to the best of their abilities. No one cheated in the 1966 World Cup Final, Rangers are accused of cheating the game of football for the last quarter of a century.

[LeazesMag 0]

Ok so cheating and fraud is fine, so long as you "enjoy it at the time" and the consequences are of no importance. The Rangers fans who've been going through the mincer since February-ish, are sure to agree !!!!!!! Especially if much of what they "enjoyed" is taken away.

 

Unbelievable.

 

read the post properly, there's a first time for everything.

 

I know your reasons for wanting to show big teams go out of business, they are as obvious as night becomes day, but it just doesn't happen. You will be wrong again.

 

Haven't you said yourself "enjoy it at the time" ?

Edited June 21, 2012 by LeazesMag

[LeazesMag 0]

If the players they bought to acheive those honours are proven to have been enticed to the club with illegal contracts then the last 25 years of RFC will count for nothing in the eyes of the SFA rulebook, other Scottish clubs, and their fans. Someone coined a phrase a few years back "financial doping"...thats exactly what this is. Drug cheats are stripped of their medals in the likes of athletics etc so there is a precident for it. What Geoff Hurst's goal in 66 has to do with it am not sure, he didnt cheat and neither did the officials, they made a decision during the course of a game to the best of their abilities. No one cheated in the 1966 World Cup Final, Rangers are accused of cheating the game of football for the last quarter of a century.

 

of course, but I'm talking from the point of view of supporters who have enjoyed that success, and pointing out the extreme unlikelihood of Rangers ceasing to exist as a result of going into administration, which is the main point Toonpack keeps harping on about, and has done generally for a long time now.

 

Simple fact is that, they will come back. They will not go out of business ie cease to exist. Like Fiorentina, rather than Third Lanark.

Edited June 21, 2012 by LeazesMag

[PaddockLad 14652]

of course, but I'm talking from the point of view of supporters who have enjoyed that success, and pointing out the extreme unlikelihood of Rangers ceasing to exist as a result of going into administration, which is the main point Toonpack keeps harping on about, and has done generally for a long time now.

 

Simple fact is that, they will come back. They will not go out of business ie cease to exist. Like Fiorentina, rather than Third Lanark.

 

The principle in sport is that if you are shown to have cheated to win something, then you are no longer the winners. The Rangers fans can say what they want, they wont change that.

[LeazesMag 0]

The principle in sport is that if you are shown to have cheated to win something, then you are no longer the winners. The Rangers fans can say what they want, they wont change that.

 

aye. But they won't cease to exist. Which will piss some idealistic people off it would seem.

[McFaul 35]

Boumsong saying he'll come back to Rangers if they give him shares in newco. He's not been paid for 3 month at PAO, and he said this, "The situation in Greece is bad, we have not been paid for 3 months, I need to feed my family."

 

UN UNBELIEVABLE. Greedy mercenary cunt. I bet he's got £15m in the bank.

[PaddockLad 14652]

aye. But they won't cease to exist. Which will piss some idealistic people off it would seem.

 

I thnk all Toonpack has said this morning is that the newco have a mountain to climb before they can even think about putting a team on the pitch, which he says sort of rules out next season. Long term you're almost certainly correct, but a season (or two?) sat on their hands then entry to division 3 of the scottish league is a just punishment, even though it will be self inflicted. The newco being admitted straight back into any league stinks. Its no punishment whatsover, even at a lower level.

[Toonpack 6914]

Boumsong saying he'll come back to Rangers if they give him shares in newco. He's not been paid for 3 month at PAO, and he said this, "The situation in Greece is bad, we have not been paid for 3 months, I need to feed my family."

 

UN UNBELIEVABLE. Greedy mercenary cunt. I bet he's got £15m in the bank.

 

He made over £600K from his few months at Rangers via his EBT (as per the BBC)

[Toonpack 6914]

aye. But they won't cease to exist. Which will piss some idealistic people off it would seem.

 

They are being liquidated, what more is there. Like any company that is liquidated, the "brand" may be bought and re-launched. That tbh is a fairly serious thing.

 

With the charges against them it is not inconceivable that they really could cease to be. What if the liquidators freeze the assett sale and then sell piecemeal to highest bidder, not inconceivable. Then again if someone starts FC Rangers of Glasgow in a Sunday league you'll contest Rangers FC still exist.

 

Fans of what was Airdrionians will at least be enjoying this, as they ceased to exist, because David Murray/Rangers refused a CVA for £30K owed stating "clubs must live within their means and if they cannot, I must look after Rangers" delicious irony.

 

No football creditors rule up north (and there shouldn't be down here), several clubs have really ceased to be.

 

But hey, it's all fine in LM world.

[McFaul 35]

He made over £600K from his few months at Rangers via his EBT (as per the BBC)

He made over £600K from his few months at Rangers via his EBT (as per the BBC)

I'd be surprised if it wasn't more with large signing on fee, as he was a Bosman. Plus he'd have got a signing on fee off the toon. They make you sick. "I have to feed my family", I don't think they'll be surving on crumpets and egg on toast somehow.

Edited June 21, 2012 by McFaul

[NJS 3986]

If Rangers were just a "normal" administration case I would like to see them have to start again - the same fate I think should apply to Pompey and the rest. I think its the blatant criminality on top of that which should add resolve to those involved to go as far as possible.

 

 

[LeazesMag 0]

They are being liquidated, what more is there. Like any company that is liquidated, the "brand" may be bought and re-launched. That tbh is a fairly serious thing.

 

With the charges against them it is not inconceivable that they really could cease to be. What if the liquidators freeze the assett sale and then sell piecemeal to highest bidder, not inconceivable. Then again if someone starts FC Rangers of Glasgow in a Sunday league you'll contest Rangers FC still exist.

 

Fans of what was Airdrionians will at least be enjoying this, as they ceased to exist, because David Murray/Rangers refused a CVA for £30K owed stating "clubs must live within their means and if they cannot, I must look after Rangers" delicious irony.

 

No football creditors rule up north (and there shouldn't be down here), several clubs have really ceased to be.

 

But hey, it's all fine in LM world.

 

so they will cease to exist then ? Isn't this what you have always peddled ?

 

Prepare to be wrong again. As I have told you, they will not cease to exist. The reality, is that it is little more than a relegation = especially where the big clubs are concerned - where they will re-group together and come back again. Just like being relegated. So you are wrong, again. You should read posts properly rather than living in your idealistic world.

 

If they stay in Scotland, give them a few years and they and their other bigoted rivals will be ruling the roost again, just like before. But I suppose you are going to say if they are re-branded and play their opening game in front of 40-50,000 supporters you will claim that they have in fact ceased to exist

 

If they enter the English leagues, then they are even better off because they will be playing in a proper league, with proper competition, even though they will find it a damn sight harder to get back up those leagues than they think.

 

So much for ceasing to exist.

Edited June 21, 2012 by LeazesMag

[Toonpack 6914]

I'd be surprised if it wasn't more with large signing on fee, as he was a Bosman. Plus he'd have got a signing on fee off the toon. They make you sick. "I have to feed my family", I don't think they'll be surving on crumpets and egg on toast somehow.

 

That was just his EBT "take" btw

 

The problems mount:

 

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/prospective-buyers-are-a-timely-coincidence-as-problems-mount-for-green.17936613

[Toonpack 6914]

so they will cease to exist then ? Isn't this what you have always peddled ?

 

Prepare to be wrong again. As I have told you, they will not cease to exist. The reality, is that it is little more than a relegation = especially where the big clubs are concerned - where they will re-group together and come back again. Just like being relegated. So you are wrong, again. You should read posts properly rather than living in your idealistic world.

 

If they stay in Scotland, give them a few years and they and their other bigoted rivals will be ruling the roost again, just like before.

If they enter the English leagues, then they are even better off because they will be playing in a proper league, with proper competition, even though they will find it a damn sight harder to get back up those leagues than they think.

 

So much for ceasing to exist.

 

No.

 

Your whole post based on a twist (for a change) desperately trying to reawaked the "old" subject.

 

Liquidation is as bad as it gets for any company. You seem to believe it's OK because the fans will remain (which they will) irrespective of the offence/outcome.

 

Basically what you are saying is Rangers (in some form) in the highland league (for example) is fine and no bad thing "for the times they enjoyed in the past". If that "fall" is due to "clean" football reasons I would agree, it's one of those things, if it's through financial mismanagement, that IMO is a whole different ball game.

[Toonpack 6914]

The principle in sport is that if you are shown to have cheated to win something, then you are no longer the winners. The Rangers fans can say what they want, they wont change that.

 

Spot on

[LeazesMag 0]

No.

 

Your whole post based on a twist (for a change) desperately trying to reawaked the "old" subject.

 

Liquidation is as bad as it gets for any company. You seem to believe it's OK because the fans will remain (which they will) irrespective of the offence/outcome.

 

Basically what you are saying is Rangers (in some form) in the highland league (for example) is fine and no bad thing "for the times they enjoyed in the past". If that "fall" is due to "clean" football reasons I would agree, it's one of those things, if it's through financial mismanagement, that IMO is a whole different ball game.

 

ceased to exist or still going strong ?

 

http://en.wikipedia..../ACF_Fiorentina

 

you still don't read posts, I'll give you that. What you are saying is nothing like I've said. Get your head out of the clouds man.

 

I realise your agenda is to paint a doomsday scenario for a club going into administration, for reasons that we can all guess, but I would say 40-50,000 supporters who will continue to support the club on matchdays in whatever guise, will prove you to be conclusively talking bollocks.

Edited June 21, 2012 by LeazesMag

[LeazesMag 0]

taken from the following book, for the benefit of Toonpack, this is what happens in the real world to big football clubs in this situation.

 

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1016&bih=657&tbm=isch&tbnid=zLYlf2c4dUH6sM:&imgrefurl=http://www.harpercollins.co.uk/Titles/46086/why-england-lose-simon-kuper-stefan-szymanski-9780007354085&docid=_ajD1_R_gDVLNM&imgurl=http://images.harpercollins.co.uk/hcwebimages/HCCOVERS/046000/046086-FC222.jpg&w=222&h=337&ei=GQnjT-bLMs_Y0QXm9rG9Aw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=484&vpy=4&dur=130&hovh=269&hovw=177&tx=108&ty=97&sig=109587134557907658278&page=1&tbnh=149&tbnw=98&start=0&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:8,s:0,i:97

 

 

On 15 September 2008, the investment bank Lehman Bros collapsed, followed almost immediately by the worlds stock markets.

 

Any football club on earth was a midget next to Lehman. In the year to September 2007, the bank had income of $59 billion [148 times Man U's income at the time], profits of $6bn [50 times ManU at the time] and was valued by the stock market at £34 billion. If ManU shares had still been traded on the stock market, they would probably have been worth less then 5 percent of Lehmans, yet Lehman still exist while ManU very much do.

 

Over the last decade, people worried a lot more about the survival of football clubs than of banks. Yet it was many of the worlds largest banks that disappeared. The public perception that football clubs are inherently unstable businesses is wrong. Despite being incompetently run, they are some of the most stable businesses on earth.

 

First some facts. In 1923 the Football League consisted of 88 teams spread over four divisions. In the 2007-08

season:

 

1. 85 of these clubs still existed [97 percent]

2. 75 remained in the top four divisions [85 percent]

3. An actual majority, 48 clubs, were in the same division as they had been in 1923

4. Only 9 temas still in the top 4 divisions were two or more divisions away from where they had been in 1923, [poor Notts County had sunk from first to fourth tier]

 

So almost every professional club in England had survived the Great Depression, the 2nd World War, recessions, corrupt chairman and appalling managers. it is a history of remarkable stability. For comparison, the economic historian Les Hannah made a list of the top 100 companies in 1912, and researched what had become of them by 1995. Nearly half the companies - 49 - had ceased to exist. Five of these had gone bankrupt, 6 were nationalised, and 37 were taken over by other firms. Even among the businesses that survived, many had gone into new sectors or moved to new locations.

 

What made these non-football businesses so unstable was, above all, competition. There is such a thing as brand loyalty, but when a better product turns up most people will switch sooner or later. So normal businesses keep having to innovate or die. They face endless pitfalls, competitor pull ahead, consumers tastes change, new technologies make entire industries obsolete, cheap goods arrive from abroad, government interferes, recessions hit, companies over invest and go bust, or they simply get unlucky. By contrast football clubs are immune from all these effects.

 

1. A club that fails to keep up with the competition might get relegated, but it can always survive at a lower level.

2. Some fans lose interest, but clubs have geographical roots. A bad team might find its catchment area shrinking, but not disappearing completely.

3. The "technology" of football can never become obsolete because the technology is the game itself. At worst football clubs might become less popular.

4. Foreign rivals cannot enter the market and supply football at a lower price. The rules of football protect domestic football by forbidding foreign competitors from joining their league. English clubs as a whole could fall behind foreign competitors and lose their best players, but foreign clubs have financial problems and incompetent managers of their own.

5. The Government is not about to nationalise football.

6. Clubs often over-invest, but this almost never destroys the club, only the wealth of the investor. At worst, the club gets relegated.

7. A clubs income might decline in a recession, but it can always live with a lower income.

 

In most industries a bad business goes bankrupt, but football clubs almost never do. The 40 English clubs the entered insolvency proceedings through May 2008 cut deals with their creditors [usual the players and the taxman] and moved on. Yes, Aldershot went bankrupt in 1992 but supporters simply started a new club almost identical to the old one. In Italy Fiorentian went bust in 2002, and got relegated to the Italian fourth division, but within a couple of years they were back at the top, the bankruptcy forgotten. No big football club disappears under its debts. If West Ham [or imagine] Liverpool fell into administration, they too wuld be guaranteed to be reborn under new ownership. We would bet Portsmouth will always be with us in some form or other. No matter how much money clubs waste, someone always bails them out. This is what is known in finance as "moral hazard", when you know you will be saved however much money you lose. Football clubs are incompetent because they can be. The professional investors who briefly bought club shares in the 1990's got out as soon as they discovered this.

[PaddockLad 14652]

That book again

[Toonpack 6914]

taken from the following book, for the benefit of Toonpack, this is what happens in the real world to big football clubs in this situation.

 

http://www.google.co...29,r:8,s:0,i:97

 

 

On 15 September 2008, the investment bank Lehman Bros collapsed, followed almost immediately by the worlds stock markets.

 

Any football club on earth was a midget next to Lehman. In the year to September 2007, the bank had income of $59 billion [148 times Man U's income at the time], profits of $6bn [50 times ManU at the time] and was valued by the stock market at £34 billion. If ManU shares had still been traded on the stock market, they would probably have been worth less then 5 percent of Lehmans, yet Lehman still exist while ManU very much do.

 

Over the last decade, people worried a lot more about the survival of football clubs than of banks. Yet it was many of the worlds largest banks that disappeared. The public perception that football clubs are inherently unstable businesses is wrong. Despite being incompetently run, they are some of the most stable businesses on earth.

 

First some facts. In 1923 the Football League consisted of 88 teams spread over four divisions. In the 2007-08

season:

 

1. 85 of these clubs still existed [97 percent]

2. 75 remained in the top four divisions [85 percent]

3. An actual majority, 48 clubs, were in the same division as they had been in 1923

4. Only 9 temas still in the top 4 divisions were two or more divisions away from where they had been in 1923, [poor Notts County had sunk from first to fourth tier]

 

So almost every professional club in England had survived the Great Depression, the 2nd World War, recessions, corrupt chairman and appalling managers. it is a history of remarkable stability. For comparison, the economic historian Les Hannah made a list of the top 100 companies in 1912, and researched what had become of them by 1995. Nearly half the companies - 49 - had ceased to exist. Five of these had gone bankrupt, 6 were nationalised, and 37 were taken over by other firms. Even among the businesses that survived, many had gone into new sectors or moved to new locations.

 

What made these non-football businesses so unstable was, above all, competition. There is such a thing as brand loyalty, but when a better product turns up most people will switch sooner or later. So normal businesses keep having to innovate or die. They face endless pitfalls, competitor pull ahead, consumers tastes change, new technologies make entire industries obsolete, cheap goods arrive from abroad, government interferes, recessions hit, companies over invest and go bust, or they simply get unlucky. By contrast football clubs are immune from all these effects.

 

1. A club that fails to keep up with the competition might get relegated, but it can always survive at a lower level.

2. Some fans lose interest, but clubs have geographical roots. A bad team might find its catchment area shrinking, but not disappearing completely.

3. The "technology" of football can never become obsolete because the technology is the game itself. At worst football clubs might become less popular.

4. Foreign rivals cannot enter the market and supply football at a lower price. The rules of football protect domestic football by forbidding foreign competitors from joining their league. English clubs as a whole could fall behind foreign competitors and lose their best players, but foreign clubs have financial problems and incompetent managers of their own.

5. The Government is not about to nationalise football.

6. Clubs often over-invest, but this almost never destroys the club, only the wealth of the investor. At worst, the club gets relegated.

7. A clubs income might decline in a recession, but it can always live with a lower income.

 

In most industries a bad business goes bankrupt, but football clubs almost never do. The 40 English clubs the entered insolvency proceedings through May 2008 cut deals with their creditors [usual the players and the taxman] and moved on. Yes, Aldershot went bankrupt in 1992 but supporters simply started a new club almost identical to the old one. In Italy Fiorentian went bust in 2002, and got relegated to the Italian fourth division, but within a couple of years they were back at the top, the bankruptcy forgotten. No big football club disappears under its debts. If West Ham [or imagine] Liverpool fell into administration, they too wuld be guaranteed to be reborn under new ownership. We would bet Portsmouth will always be with us in some form or other. No matter how much money clubs waste, someone always bails them out. This is what is known in finance as "moral hazard", when you know you will be saved however much money you lose. Football clubs are incompetent because they can be. The professional investors who briefly bought club shares in the 1990's got out as soon as they discovered this.

 

Totally destroyed that premise ages ago, again you drag up old rubbish arguments.

 

You cannot compare commercial enterprise to football clubs, commercial companies have "customers" football clubs have fans (and rather "protective" laws - in England and Wales anyway).

 

Beyond ridiculous.

[LeazesMag 0]

Totally destroyed that premise ages ago, again you drag up old rubbish arguments.

 

You cannot compare commercial enterprise to football clubs, commercial companies have "customers" football clubs have fans (and rather "protective" laws - in England and Wales anyway).

 

Beyond ridiculous.

 

they are facts, actual reality, in the real world, not a make believe wish that you have based on an agenda you desperately wish to promote at every opportunity.

 

Give your head a shake.

 

40-50,000 Rangers fans who will continue to support the club on matchday, not even mentioning a canny few more dotted all over Scotland, will show you that they have not "ceased to exist". How fuckin stupid is that

Edited June 21, 2012 by LeazesMag

[Toonpack 6914]

they are facts, actual reality, in the real world, not a make believe wish that you have based on an agenda you desperately wish to promote at every opportunity.

 

Give your head a shake.

 

40-50,000 Rangers fans who will continue to support the club on matchday, not even mentioning a canny few more dotted all over Scotland, will show you that they have not "ceased to exist". How fuckin stupid is that

 

Facts based upon the comparison of chalk and cheese, aye righty-o

[NJS 3986]

Funny how the person I remember using the "NUFC will cease to exist" most was Hall.

 

At the time I recognised it as scare tactics given Boro had "folded" in 86 - I had no idea it was going to become an actual tactic used deliberately. I wonder if Hall regrets not trying it after the failed share issue now.

[LeazesMag 0]

Facts based upon the comparison of chalk and cheese, aye righty-o

 

footballing facts. You aren't going to comment on them are you ? You're massively wrong chum, you haven't got a clue what you are talking about. You wanted them to cease to exist, and we [or I] know exactly why [so you can spout your usual agenda], but it is never going to happen. What do you think all those Rangers fans will do ? What a load of crap

 

Everything you have said about your ideas on football and your definition of success and failure, has been bollocks, is bollocks, and will continue to be bollocks.

 

You should read that book, it may wake you up.

[LeazesMag 0]

Funny how the person I remember using the "NUFC will cease to exist" most was Hall.

 

At the time I recognised it as scare tactics given Boro had "folded" in 86 - I had no idea it was going to become an actual tactic used deliberately. I wonder if Hall regrets not trying it after the failed share issue now.

 

at the time, NUFC had about 15,000 supporters, and had one foot in the 3rd division, not the 52,000 it has now that he/they left when they finished their "failure" regime.

 

Maybe he does regret it, I don't know. The same rules applied though, if the club had gone down and into administration, they would have re-formed and presumably under the same management would have repeated the same rise in the next decade and a half. And nobody would have gave a toss once the wins started rolling either. The same as they would not have gave a toss if the club had moved ground to Leazes Park, once they got used to the idea and the wins started rolling and they saw it as a good thing to fill it with a good football team.

 

Supporters get over change, when all is said and done. What they want is a winning team and it stops there.