Politics

[Gemmill 53781]

14 minutes ago, Alex said:

There was an incident a while back where a Palestinian lad the same age as my eldest was shot and killed. His family said he was gathering almonds and the Israeli government spokesperson said they were a terrorist throwing stones at cars on a busy road. Now even if you accept the latter version, they’re basically admitting they think it’s justifiable to kill kids for throwing stones. I know that’s just one drop in a sea of tragedies but how is it somehow worse in the eyes of government to criticise the IDF, however clumsily, and talk about prosecuting people for doing so? Actually talking about prosecuting them as well? I don’t see how it’s hate speech. I actually think conflating the IDF and its action with all Jewish people, which is essentially what is being done with the reaction, is far worse. On top of which there will be more people happy to use it to bash the bbc than there will be people with genuine concerns about antisemitism. 

 

Agreed, it's absolutely ridiculous. Someone with some plums should be standing up in the HoC and saying wtf are we doing here? You've got the IDF shooting at civilians queuing for food and you've got a rapper on stage starting chants. Which is the more damaging here? 

 

Just as a reality check for people. 

 

Honestly the human race has lost its fucking mind. 

[Dr Gloom 24693]

35 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Yeah, I thought this watching the BBC news last night.

Story 1, about kneecap and and this Bob Vylan duo being antisemitic and facing years in prison, for chanting "death to the IDF". [Does that fuck make you antisemitic imo]

Next story. IDF have massacred starving people in Gaza as they queued for food, AGAIN.

 

 

The world has turned insane, it started around 10 years ago and just gets worse and worse.

 

 

It's not really for you to judge what is antisemitic and what isn't. plenty of jews found it offensive and that's all that matters on that score. 

 

i found those chants pretty distasteful and the morons chanting along with it in the crowd don't have a clue about the reality. for example, my cousins' kids are all pro-peace and do not want to have to fight in this conflict but they don't get to choose to serve in the IDF, or not. 

 

i like kneecap. i watched the set and enjoyed it. no problem with pro-palestinian chanting as far as i'm concerned. calling for the death of a bunch of conscripted soldiers is another matter. 

[Rayvin 6719]

1 minute ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

It's not really for you to judge what is antisemitic and what isn't. plenty of jews found it offensive and that's all that matters on that score. 

 

 

I'm seeing this get said a lot these days tbh but if you think it through it's a pretty dangerous sentiment. That could apply to literally anything. I mean for one thing, supporting Israel's right to defend itself could then become Islamophobic - not up to us to define whether it is or not, it's up to Muslims. The whole debate would just become ridiculous.

[Dr Gloom 24693]

Just now, Rayvin said:

 

I'm seeing this get said a lot these days tbh but if you think it through it's a pretty dangerous sentiment. That could apply to literally anything. I mean for one thing, supporting Israel's right to defend itself could then become Islamophobic - not up to us to define whether it is or not, it's up to Muslims. The whole debate would just become ridiculous.

 

it can be applied to any minority, not just jews. i wouldn't tell a person of colour, or a woman, or any minority what they should or shouldn't find offensive to them because i have zero idea about their lived experience 

[Rayvin 6719]

Just now, Dr Gloom said:

 

it can be applied to any minority, not just jews. i wouldn't tell a person of colour, or a woman, or any minority what they should or shouldn't find offensive to them because i have zero idea about their lived experience 

 

I think we can work to the definitions provided by the IHRA at minimum. If we can't, there's no line anywhere. There needs to be a shared and agreed basis for what things mean otherwise society just makes no sense. Not to me at least.

[Renton 25050]

6 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

It's not really for you to judge what is antisemitic and what isn't. plenty of jews found it offensive and that's all that matters on that score. 

 

i found those chants pretty distasteful and the morons chanting along with it in the crowd don't have a clue about the reality. for example, my cousins' kids are all pro-peace and do not want to have to fight in this conflict but they don't get to choose to serve in the IDF, or not. 

 

i like kneecap. i watched the set and enjoyed it. no problem with pro-palestinian chanting as far as i'm concerned. calling for the death of a bunch of conscripted soldiers is another matter. 

 

Do you think that's what they were doing? I think they were calling for the death of those murdering starving civilians. Is it distasteful? Yes, I think it is. Is it calling for the death of jewish people. No, it isn't. Is it on the same magnitude as those actually doing the daily slaughter, which was deemed less newsworthy by the BBC? No it's clearly not.

 

I normally stay out of these discussions because of the sensitivities involved. But the atrocities committed in Gaza and the rank hypocrisy of our politicians and news media are getting very hard to ignore.

 

[Dr Gloom 24693]

if you lead a chant of "death to the IDF" you are inciting the murder of an entire army. i'm not here to defend the IDF - or the despicable government giving them their orders - but a chant like that is a different ball park to "free palestine" or "fuck kier starmer". like i said, the army includes many peaceniks who want fuck all to do with what is happening but tragically have no choice - they are forced to serve 

[Dr Gloom 24693]

Just now, Renton said:

 

Do you think that's what they were doing? I think they were calling for the death of those murdering starving civilians. Is it distasteful? Yes, I think it is. Is it calling for the death of jewish people. No, it isn't. Is it on the same magnitude as those actually doing the daily slaughter, which was deemed less newsworthy by the BBC? No it's clearly not.

 

I normally stay out of these discussions because of the sensitivities involved. But the atrocities committed in Gaza and the rank hypocrisy of our politicians and news media are getting very hard to ignore.

 

 

this is whataboutery. of course it isn't on the same magnitude as what is happening in gaza, but that's not what we're talking about. 

 

they're calling for the death of an entire army, which is made up almost exclusively of jewish people

 

inciting murder on stage is a hate crime - take it up with the police, not me. it was a fucking stupid thing to do and the heat they're getting now shouldn't surprise them.  

[Alex 38464]

2 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

if you lead a chant of "death to the IDF" you are inciting the murder of an entire army. i'm not here to defend the IDF - or the despicable government giving them their orders - but a chant like that is a different ball park to "free palestine" or "fuck kier starmer". like i said, the army includes many peaceniks who want fuck all to do with what is happening but tragically have no choice - they are forced to serve 

 It’s a fucking stupid thing to say but they’re trying to make a point rather than anything else imo. It’s one thing inciting a group who are in a position to carry something out  and a different matter when it’s a situation like this. I’m not saying you can say what you want without consequences but I feel like it’s not a particularly proportionate response by the media and politicians given the wider context and the obvious war crimes being committed with the tacit approval of ours and other governments 

[Renton 25050]

3 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

if you lead a chant of "death to the IDF" you are inciting the murder of an entire army. i'm not here to defend the IDF - or the despicable government giving them their orders - but a chant like that is a different ball park to "free palestine" or "fuck kier starmer". like i said, the army includes many peaceniks who want fuck all to do with what is happening but tragically have no choice - they are forced to serve 

 

If I say "Kill the Russian army", does that mean I literally want to kill all Russians? Because that's where the logical claim of antisemitism in this case would bring me. Of course I wouldn't be talking literally about killing any individual, it would be killing the organisation I'd be referring to.

 

But aye, let's waste money and bring this to court. 

2 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

this is whataboutery. of course it isn't on the same magnitude as what is happening in gaza, but that's not what we're talking about. 

 

they're calling for the death of an entire army, which is made up almost exclusively of jewish people

 

inciting murder on stage is a hate crime - take it up with the police, not me. it was a fucking stupid thing to do and the heat they're getting now shouldn't surprise them.  

 

It really isn't whataboutery at all though, the "crimes" are directly connected. I don't see it remotely as a hate crime personally, I don't equate the IDF as being synonymous with being Jewish, but if I'm not allowed an opinion based on my non-jewish ethnicity then yes, let's take it to court and let them decide. Meanwhile let the atrocities continue and make sure nobody can speak out against it for fear of being labelled an antisemite.

 

[Rayvin 6719]

As compassionate people we shouldn't be calling for the death of anyone. If this crime meets a threshold from existing legislation to be treated as a hate crime, then it simply does.

 

We shouldn't express any particularly strong views on it anyway, it's a sensitive issue and genuinely if this does become a hate crime then some of the things being said in here about the situation could be viewed that way too.

[Renton 25050]

1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

As compassionate people we shouldn't be calling for the death of anyone. If this crime meets a threshold from existing legislation to be treated as a hate crime, then it simply does.

 

We shouldn't express any particularly strong views on it anyway, it's a sensitive issue and genuinely if this does become a hate crime then some of the things being said in here about the situation could be viewed that way too.

 

The IDF is not a person. But I agree with your sentiment. But regarding individuals, plenty of people openly wished Thatcher dead and celebrated her death. I too thought that was distasteful but hardly an imprisonable offence in a free society.

[Dr Gloom 24693]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

As compassionate people we shouldn't be calling for the death of anyone. If this crime meets a threshold from existing legislation to be treated as a hate crime, then it simply does.

 

We shouldn't express any particularly strong views on it anyway, it's a sensitive issue and genuinely if this does become a hate crime then some of the things being said in here about the situation could be viewed that way too.

caling for the death of a certain group of people or person is a hate crime. It isn’t up for debate. Those are the laws of the land 

[Dr Gloom 24693]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

 

The IDF is not a person. But I agree with your sentiment. But regarding individuals, plenty of people openly wished Thatcher dead and celebrated her death. I too thought that was distasteful but hardly an imprisonable offence in a free society.

If you got up on stage and incited a crowd to chant “kill Thatcher” while she was still alive, you’d be getting nicked sharpish.  Why are we debating this? 

[Rayvin 6719]

2 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

caling for the death of a certain group of people or person is a hate crime. It isn’t up for debate. Those are the laws of the land 

 

I thought it had to be based on non-changeable characteristics, identity stuff - that's what google says anyway. My bad though, it's a hate crime then. I suppose I've probably committed a few hate crimes in my time with comments about the Tories... maybe I really should go back and purge my comment history tbh..

[Dr Gloom 24693]

6 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I thought it had to be based on non-changeable characteristics, identity stuff - that's what google says anyway. My bad though, it's a hate crime then. I suppose I've probably committed a few hate crimes in my time with comments about the Tories... maybe I really should go back and purge my comment history tbh..

I haven’t googled the definition of the law but IDF soldiers are almost exclusively Jewish 

[Renton 25050]

6 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

I haven’t googled the definition of the law but IDF soldiers are almost exclusively Jewish 

 

Soldiers from any country's army are usually exclusively from that country.

[Renton 25050]

17 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

If you got up on stage and incited a crowd to chant “kill Thatcher” while she was still alive, you’d be getting nicked sharpish.  Why are we debating this? 

 

You know, I'm pretty sure such sentiment was quite common at gigs in the 80s. I don't know if technically then it was a hate crime but no-one was getting arrested for it.

[Alex 38464]

I guess where Gloom is coming from

here is a lot of the IDF are  conscripted and some of them are members of his own family. Which is totally understandable of course

[Dr Gloom 24693]

I’ll say it again. I thought Kneecap were class. I like their music and have zero problem with their solidarity with Palestinian people. I found the number of Palestinian flags in their crowd and the chants of “free Palestine” quite moving.
 

It did make me think about your comment about how we picked sides however, @Rayvin.
 

Trump is with Russia, not Ukraine, but Europe is supposed to be on Ukraine’s side too. I’m always struck by how that particular genocide doesn’t inspire the same level of solidarity here in the UK. I didn’t spot a single Ukraine flag during any performance at Glastonbury. Nor did I hear any artists lead any rousing chants of “Slava Ukraine”, despite Netanyahu’s tactics of siege and starvation coming straight out of Putin’s playbook. 

[Dr Gloom 24693]

11 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

You know, I'm pretty sure such sentiment was quite common at gigs in the 80s. I don't know if technically then it was a hate crime but no-one was getting arrested for it.

obviously things have moved on since the 80s - that’s progress. The point is, were you to call for the death of someone - or some group of people - on stage today, you’re getting nicked. 

[Rayvin 6719]

I think a lot of what people struggle with is that they're seeing images of children being shot dead coming from Israel's situation. I've not seen anything like that from Ukraine for a long time. I know a girl living out in Ukraine atm and life sounds horrendous but at the same time they're just about hanging on. I send her some money each month to try to help, my own personal attempt to alleviate just a little of the agony. I don't do that with anyone in Gaza as I don't know anyone personally, so I would contend that I'm more invested in that conflict than this one.

 

For what it's worth, I see Russia as a greater issue than Israel. But Gloom, for real man, idk if you see the videos that do the rounds coming out of Gaza... they're all over reddit, and they are beyond harrowing, sometimes involving IDF servicemen calling for all Palestinians to be murdered like animals etc. Maybe the Palestinians are just better at social media, maybe the videos are faked, dunno. But that's the context for a lot of this.

[Dr Gloom 24693]

10 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

I think a lot of what people struggle with is that they're seeing images of children being shot dead coming from Israel's situation. I've not seen anything like that from Ukraine for a long time. I know a girl living out in Ukraine atm and life sounds horrendous but at the same time they're just about hanging on. I send her some money each month to try to help, my own personal attempt to alleviate just a little of the agony. I don't do that with anyone in Gaza as I don't know anyone personally, so I would contend that I'm more invested in that conflict than this one.

 

For what it's worth, I see Russia as a greater issue than Israel. But Gloom, for real man, idk if you see the videos that do the rounds coming out of Gaza... they're all  over reddit, and they are beyond harrowing, sometimes involving IDF servicemen calling for all Palestinians to be murdered like animals etc. Maybe the Palestinians are just better at social media, maybe the videos are faked, dunno. But that's the context for a lot of this.

Yeah, I’ve seen them, which is why my position changed from where I was after  October 7, where I could see why Israel needed to retaliate, to where it is today after the assault on Gaza intensified. I’m not here to defend what Israel is doing. 

 

I’ve also seen similar harrowing videos coming out of Ukraine, the forgotten genocide.

 

Maybe it’s my Jewish paranoia but it appears to me that some genocides matter more than others

[Craig 8086]

Sadly I think both the media and the politicians determine which atrocities matter more based on the impact it'd have on ourselves. Genocide is genocide whether it's Israeli, Palestinian, Rwandan, German, Yugoslavian, Russian, Ukrainian, etc. 

[Rayvin 6719]

1 minute ago, Dr Gloom said:

Yeah, I’ve seen them, which is why my position changed from where I was after  October 7, where I could see why Israel needed to retaliate, to where it is today after the assault on Gaza intensified. I’m not here to defend what Israel is doing. 

 

I’ve also seen similar harrowing videos coming out of Ukraine, the forgotten genocide.

 

Maybe it’s my Jewish paranoia but it appears to me that some genocides matter more than others

 

I get that for sure. I would throw into the mix as well though that the UK supports Israel whereas it doesn't support Russia - so there's a domestic angle to it there. There's not much more anyone can do than what we're doing with the Ukraine, the government supports them and is assisting them - Russia doesn't give a shit if we protest them but Israel does actually on some level respond to international pressure. So arguably people's energy is actually better spent on Gaza than it is on Ukraine.

 

I think if people's feeds were full of dead and dying Ukrainian children it'd be different though, tbh.