Politics

[Dazzler 5508]

34 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

No, Blair doesn't count any more because he is apparently far to the left of Starmer and his cabinet. Goal posts were shifted yesterday, can't talk about successes of the past, only allowed to talk about an imagined future. 

I would also consider myself a "moderate left" if we're putting labels on things, or centre leftist, or whatever label of the Peoples' Front of Judea you want to use. . I'm also a pragmatist and a realist. This country will never vote for the type of socialism promoted by Corbyn and his followers, that's the hard truth of it. I am convinced Owen Jones and the like enjoy being under a neo-facist government so they can twist and moan about the predicament the country is in. Getting elected into power and actually practically helping people, not so much. 

 

Starmer is a bit dull, that's as harsh as anyone can realistically say yet the far right are labelling him a socialist loon and the far left are labelling him a tory cunt. That's how I come to the conclusion that he's probably the right person for the job. If he's pissing off the minority of either side of the spectrum then he's probably going to do alright by the majority.

[Renton 17781]

13 minutes ago, Dazzler said:

Starmer is a bit dull, that's as harsh as anyone can realistically say yet the far right are labelling him a socialist loon and the far left are labelling him a tory cunt. That's how I come to the conclusion that he's probably the right person for the job. If he's pissing off the minority of either side of the spectrum then he's probably going to do alright by the majority.

 

Give me dull competency any day of the week. 

Before your time, we used to have one on here, called the grey man. But boy could he kick a football so you can never tell. 

[Dr Gloom 19825]

23 hours ago, Rayvin said:

I guess we shall soon see what splendours Labour have in store for us.

 

Very little point in arguing about it though, none of us have a fucking clue what they'll do at this point and this board in general has a shocking track record with predictions anyway. Remember when we all thought that the Tories would never see out a full term after Brexit?

 

They're on to their third PM of the term since the Brexit deal was agreed, so we weren't that far off. Brexit destroyed the tories, possibly forever 

[Rayvin 4964]

2 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

They're on to their third PM of the term since the Brexit deal was agreed, so we weren't that far off. Brexit destroyed the tories, possibly forever 

 

We were saying they wouldn't make it 6 months tbf. The Tories are not dead, they will never be dead. That is the only truth to take from all of this.

[Dr Gloom 19825]

4 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

We were saying they wouldn't make it 6 months tbf. The Tories are not dead, they will never be dead. That is the only truth to take from all of this.

 

have you seen the latest polls? last time the tories worked strategically with the brexit party. reform are not being as helpful this time. they want the one nation tories out. they've already pulled them to the right but their job isn't done yet. 

 

if they are successful and some of the more catastrophic polling for the tories comes to pass, we could see the Lib Dems as the new opposition. i think this scenario is farfetched but reform could fuck them if the progressive parties form an alliance and people do vote strategically. 

 

what if labour then governs from the soft right, as you suggest?

 

what does the future look like for the tories with kemi badenoch, suella braverman or nigel farage as leader? this country will never elect a far right party, just as it will never elect one from the hard left.

[Rayvin 4964]

6 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

have you seen the latest polls? last time the tories worked strategically with the brexit party. reform are not being as helpful this time. they want the one nation tories out. they've already pulled them to the right but their job isn't done yet. 

 

if they are successful and some of the more catastrophic polling for the tories comes to pass, we could see the Lib Dems as the new opposition. i think this scenario is farfetched but reform could fuck them if the progressive parties form an alliance and people do vote strategically. 

 

what if labour then governs from the soft right, as you suggest?

 

what does the future look like for the tories with kemi badenoch, suella braverman or nigel farage as leader? this country will never elect a far right party, just as it will never elect one from the hard left.

 

Whole world is turning right wing, the left has lost. All that happens is everyone shifts to the right. The Tories will take up their new position as culture warriors first and foremost.

 

I absolutely believe that this country can and will elect a far right politician. I believe Boris Johnson was/is one.

[Renton 17781]

6 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Whole world is turning right wing, the left has lost. All that happens is everyone shifts to the right. The Tories will take up their new position as culture warriors first and foremost.

 

I absolutely believe that this country can and will elect a far right politician. I believe Boris Johnson was/is one.

 

No he wasn't, he was a popularist only interested in himself, zero idealogy. Gloom is right on this. Neither far right nor far left are getting elected in the UK. 

 

 

 

Edited March 23 by Renton

[Renton 17781]

Also politics is cyclical. There's definitely been a shift to the right internationally recently, nothing to say it won't swing back again. Might take WW3 though. 

[Dr Gloom 19825]

6 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Whole world is turning right wing, the left has lost. All that happens is everyone shifts to the right. The Tories will take up their new position as culture warriors first and foremost.

 

I absolutely believe that this country can and will elect a far right politician. I believe Boris Johnson was/is one.

 

disagree. the majority want boring/sensible centrism and improving living standards

[Rayvin 4964]

3 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

No he wasn't, he was a popularist only interested in himself, zero idealogy. Gloom is right on this. Neither far right nor far left are getting elected in the UK. 

 

 

 

 

Would you consider Trump far right? Asking because he was of course a democrat and swapped over for opportunistic reasons too.

 

If we're calling Braverman far right, we have to call Johnson the same. Opportunist or not, he delivered the far right wet dream. Actions define us, not words.

[Rayvin 4964]

3 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

disagree. the majority want boring/sensible centrism and improving living standards

 

How come the majority voted for Brexit then? The majority have the potential to be incredibly stupid.

[Renton 17781]

And, if you think it's impossible for a major party to go out of existence, consider Canada, 1993. The governing Conservatives then went from 169 seats to 2, and shortly ceased to exist as a party. This is increasingly a possibility for the UK conservatives, and if it happens, I will rejoice. 

[Renton 17781]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Would you consider Trump far right? Asking because he was of course a democrat and swapped over for opportunistic reasons too.

 

If we're calling Braverman far right, we have to call Johnson the same. Opportunist or not, he delivered the far right wet dream. Actions define us, not words.

 

No, I don't regard him in those terms. He is an authoritarian narcissistic psychopath with zero idealogical principles, an extreme version of Johnson. In the UK, people rejected Johnson once they finally realised what he was (I know it was obvious to us). I can't comment on the US, very different country. 

[Rayvin 4964]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

 

No, I don't regard him in those terms. He is an authoritarian narcissistic psychopath with zero idealogical principles, an extreme version of Johnson. In the UK, people rejected Johnson once they finally realised what he was (I know it was obvious to us). I can't comment on the US, very different country. 

 

They voted him in to deliver a far right wet dream. There is no escaping that this country is absolutely capable of making batshit voting choices as long as they're on the right of politics. It is surely all the more believable now that Labour have undeniably moved to the right. The Tories went to the right, Labour did, that just moves the centre to the right too. So Braverman, I would argue, isn't far right now - she's right of the new centre.

 

It is what it is. Gen Z are in trouble too btw, really alarming surge in right wing sentiments coming from them. With the left collapsing as a cultural force, they're being left to channel their frustrations in the way instagram influencers like Tate tell them to. So I don't actually see much optimism for the death of the hard right, there' plenty coming for the Tories to run at.

[Renton 17781]

18 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

They voted him in to deliver a far right wet dream. There is no escaping that this country is absolutely capable of making batshit voting choices as long as they're on the right of politics. It is surely all the more believable now that Labour have undeniably moved to the right. The Tories went to the right, Labour did, that just moves the centre to the right too. So Braverman, I would argue, isn't far right now - she's right of the new centre.

 

It is what it is. Gen Z are in trouble too btw, really alarming surge in right wing sentiments coming from them. With the left collapsing as a cultural force, they're being left to channel their frustrations in the way instagram influencers like Tate tell them to. So I don't actually see much optimism for the death of the hard right, there' plenty coming for the Tories to run at.

 

Johnson wasn't voted in to deliver a right wet dream though was he? In fact, arguably the opposite. Brexit was never framed that way, and he promised "levelling up". The culture war bollocks almost exclusively came after he was elected. And even in 2019, more people voted for left leaning parties than right. 

Johnson was elected on a promise to please everybody and to do this he lied to everybody. His lies have ultimately been found out and will destroy his party. 

As fot GenZ, are they really all enamoured with the likes of Tate? I thought in the UK at least younger people, and increasingly the middled aged, were moving in favour of so called progressive parties. I guess you wouldn't accept Labour as being progressive, but I think you're just wrong on that. 

Edited March 23 by Renton

[Rayvin 4964]

7 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Johnson wasn't voted in to deliver a right wet dream though was he? In fact, arguably the opposite. Brexit was never framed that way, and he promised "levelling up". The culture war bollocks almost exclusively came after he was elected. And even in 2019, more people voted for left leaning parties than right. 

Johnson was elected on a promise to please everybody and to do this he lied to everybody. His lies have ultimately been found out and will destroy his party. 

As fot GenZ, are they really all enamoured with the likes of Tate? I thought in the UK at least younger people, and increasingly the middled aged, were moving in favour of so called progressive parties. I guess you wouldn't accept Labour as being progressive, but I think you're just wrong on that. 

 

I think that's exactly why he was voted in. "Let's get Brexit done" was the framing of the entire campaign - and Brexit remains, all the way through, a far right wet dream. I don't really understand how him campaigning to deliver a hard brexit (pure enough for the right wing of his party, remember) is somehow something other than a highly desirable right wing fantasy that a lot of people voted for. None of us would have said in 2019 that Johnson's platform was about bettering lives or anything, it was entirely on Brexit.

 

Unsure of the leanings of the statesmen but Gen Z are definitely in the crosshairs, yes: https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/society/2023/11/gen-z-most-conservative-generation-radical-youth

 

Labour are presently nothing because we don't know what they stand for. They're a series of assumptions that we're projecting onto them due to our own biases. But tbh I would still vaguely consider them progressive anyway, at least in some areas. That said, I've no idea which areas those are at the moment, just blind optimism tbh.

[Renton 17781]

1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

 

I think that's exactly why he was voted in. "Let's get Brexit done" was the framing of the entire campaign - and Brexit remains, all the way through, a far right wet dream. I don't really understand how him campaigning to deliver a hard brexit (pure enough for the right wing of his party, remember) is somehow something other than a highly desirable right wing fantasy that a lot of people voted for. None of us would have said in 2019 that Johnson's platform was about bettering lives or anything, it was entirely on Brexit.

 

Unsure of the leanings of the statesmen but Gen Z are definitely in the crosshairs, yes: https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/society/2023/11/gen-z-most-conservative-generation-radical-youth

 

Labour are presently nothing because we don't know what they stand for. They're a series of assumptions that we're projecting onto them due to our own biases. But tbh I would still vaguely consider them progressive anyway, at least in some areas. That said, I've no idea which areas those are at the moment, just blind optimism tbh.

 

People voted for Bexit across an entire spectrum of lies, from Lexit to outright racism. The people behind it were certainly far right, I wouldn't include Johnson in that group though personally. So I just don't think you can extrapolate from this that the majority of people in the UK are far right leaning, especially as the Tories did not win the popular vote. People are gullible and believed the lies, simple as that. They've belatedly wised up. 

 

Labour will first and foremost give us stability in their first term, competence. I hope you will be pleasantly surprised what they then go on to do., but we'll see. To add btw, I despised Corbyn, still do. But twice I held my nose and voted for him as the lesser of two evils. I would hope those at the left spectrum end of the Labour party could do the same, rather than being a prick like Jones trying to sabotage the party. 

[Dr Gloom 19825]

43 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

How come the majority voted for Brexit then? The majority have the potential to be incredibly stupid.

there was a nationalist/racist/hard right support for Brexit, of course. A lot of people don’t like how immigration has changed communities. For a lot of people it was a protest vote against the establishment. For some it was patriotism, nostalgia, a longing for something from the past, which was somehow better than the present. 

 

I think the UK is a quite conservative country, and by that I mean conservative in the traditional sense of preserving values/way of life etc, which is why the Brexit vote was so remarkable, because it upended everything in a way most people weren’t prepared for. People were lied to and duped, unfortunately.
 

But we’re much more likely to vote for centrists to govern the country than parties on either extreme of the political spectrum - particularly after the experience of the past few years. Voters are yearning for a return to boring normality. Starmer knows this. 

[Dr Gloom 19825]

Also people didn’t really know what they voting for on Brexit. If Cameron had negotiated an emergency break on immigration with the EU we probably would have got away with it. That’s what it was ultimately about, really. 
 

It should never have gone to referendum, let alone a binary in/out one. 
 

The Brexit vote showed the public wants more control on immigration  (another reason the Tories are fucked). There’s nothing wrong with that and if doesn’t mean they would elect a far right government. I think the majority are too sensible/boring 

[Rayvin 4964]

11 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

People voted for Bexit across an entire spectrum of lies, from Lexit to outright racism. The people behind it were certainly far right, I wouldn't include Johnson in that group though personally. So I just don't think you can extrapolate from this that the majority of people in the UK are far right leaning, especially as the Tories did not win the popular vote. People are gullible and believed the lies, simple as that. They've belatedly wised up. 

 

Labour will first and foremost give us stability in their first term, competence. I hope you will be pleasantly surprised what they then go on to do., but we'll see. To add btw, I despised Corbyn, still do. But twice I held my nose and voted for him as the lesser of two evils. I would hope those at the left spectrum end of the Labour party could do the same, rather than being a prick like Jones trying to sabotage the party. 

 

Loads of the centrists tried to sabotage Corbyn, so I assume they were all pricks too. Also I voted for two centrist Labour administrations before this. My issue with Starmer, as you know because I keep saying it, is that he fails to deliver anything useful to me across the only two policies that can make any significant difference to the country. Should that change, consider my vote bought.

 

As for the Brexit point, I didn't say in any post that the majority of people were far right leaning. I said what you have just said, that they were capable of voting for far right insanity, as evidenced by Brexit itself. I think we agree on this point tbh.

[Alex 30414]

1 hour ago, Rayvin said:

 

How come the majority voted for Brexit then? The majority have the potential to be incredibly stupid.

They were lied to though. I take your point but as we’ve said on here before it’s relatively easy to sell a bullshit vision of something that hasn’t happened. Whereas now they know they were lied to it’s different. The other thing is, which is opinion because I haven’t research to back this up, I think a lot of people who’s never even bother voting were motivated to vote in the referendum. 

[Rayvin 4964]

4 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

Also people didn’t really know what they voting for on Brexit. If Cameron had negotiated an emergency break on immigration with the EU we probably would have got away with it. That’s what it was ultimately about, really. 
 

It should never have gone to referendum, let alone a binary in/out one. 
 

The Brexit vote showed the public wants more control on immigration  (another reason the Tories are fucked). There’s nothing wrong with that and if doesn’t mean they would elect a far right government. I think the majority are too sensible/boring 

 

They still elected Johnson though, and he's certifiable. The sensible/boring British public voted for this complete fiasco we've had for the last 5 years. Clearly they didn't understand how mental their choice was going to be, but all that means is that they lack the critical thinking skills to understand the consequences of what they're voting for, meaning it could easily happen again. That's my point - the British public cannot be trusted not to make stupid voting decisions on the right hand side of the political spectrum.

[Rayvin 4964]

1 minute ago, Alex said:

They were lied to though. I take your point but as we’ve said on here before it’s relatively easy to sell a bullshit vision of something that hasn’t happened. Whereas now they know they were lied to it’s different. The other thing is, which is opinion because I haven’t research to back this up, I think a lot of people who’s never even bother voting were motivated to vote in the referendum. 

 

Yeah just to be clear then, I'm not saying that most of the British public are secret fascists. I'm saying that enough of them are stupid enough that they don't need to be in order to cause harm, and that this characteristic should be enough to keep the Tories around.

[Alex 30414]

25 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I think that's exactly why he was voted in. "Let's get Brexit done" was the framing of the entire campaign - and Brexit remains, all the way through, a far right wet dream. I don't really understand how him campaigning to deliver a hard brexit (pure enough for the right wing of his party, remember) is somehow something other than a highly desirable right wing fantasy that a lot of people voted for. None of us would have said in 2019 that Johnson's platform was about bettering lives or anything, it was entirely on Brexit.

 

Unsure of the leanings of the statesmen but Gen Z are definitely in the crosshairs, yes: https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/society/2023/11/gen-z-most-conservative-generation-radical-youth

 

Labour are presently nothing because we don't know what they stand for. They're a series of assumptions that we're projecting onto them due to our own biases. But tbh I would still vaguely consider them progressive anyway, at least in some areas. That said, I've no idea which areas those are at the moment, just blind optimism tbh.

It was getting Brexit done in part and Corbyn. Loads of traditional Labour voters were put off by him. I’ve mentioned it on here before I think but o know a couple who live in Blyth. They both voted Green last time round. They don’t like the Tories, would never vote UKIP, who were on the ballot paper then but couldn’t get away with Corbyn. One has an ex-Army brother and the other has a dad who served in the Royal Navy. Which was a factor in them being suspicious of Corbyn. I’m not really saying they were right or wrong but they’re natural Labour voters who were turned off by him

[Dr Gloom 19825]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

They still elected Johnson though, and he's certifiable. The sensible/boring British public voted for this complete fiasco we've had for the last 5 years. Clearly they didn't understand how mental their choice was going to be, but all that means is that they lack the critical thinking skills to understand the consequences of what they're voting for, meaning it could easily happen again. That's my point - the British public cannot be trusted not to make stupid voting decisions on the right hand side of the political spectrum.

They voted to “get Brexit done”. Johnson got in mostly because people were fed up with talking about Brexit and he was promising to get it sorted and end all the division while levelling up. He also won because Corbyn was the alternative. He wasn’t offering anything on Brexit and doesn’t sing the national anthem.