Burnley vs Newcastle

[Alex 30458]

Just now, Dr Gloom said:

one my earliest football memories is him getting sent off in mexico 86

He was a better player four years earlier. That side was a bit underrated, exited Espana 82 without losing a game (not even on pens) and comfortably beat a good France side in their opening game. Scored a belta in the cup final against Brighton that I remember well.

[Park Life 70]

'The crab'.

[Dr Gloom 19839]

wasn't he the first england player ever to be shown a red card? 

[Alex 30458]

3 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

wasn't he the first england player ever to be shown a red card? 

In a World Cup

[Dr Gloom 19839]

i have vague memories of us playing shit with him and robson and then his suspension and the latter's injury forcing robson's hand into play a different system and new players led to much improved second half of the tournament. there was a similar scenario in italia 90 too iirc

 

[Park Life 70]

Allan Mullery.

[Alex 30458]

Just now, Dr Gloom said:

i have vague memories of us playing shit with him and robson and then his suspension and the latter's injury forcing robson's hand into play a different system and new players led to much improved second half of the tournament. there was a similar scenario in italia 90 too iirc

 

Tbf to Wilkins the improvement was all about playing Beardsley alongside Lineker (instead of Mark Hately). They still played more or less the same system (4-4-2).

[Tdansmith 2131]

20 minutes ago, Park Life said:

Allan Mullery.

Jumpers for goalposts.

[Dr Gloom 19839]

4 minutes ago, Alex said:

Tbf to Wilkins the improvement was all about playing Beardsley alongside Lineker (instead of Mark Hately). They still played more or less the same system (4-4-2).

 

 

"SLICK ENGLAND CONFOUND THEIR CRITICS
"...significantly reshaped team swept Poland out of their path...
"The widely criticized 4-3-3 formation was abandoned...in favour of four men in midfield and two up front.
"...a younger, better-balanced look...
"...exhilarating first-half football..." - Daily Telegraph, 12 June 1986

 

http://www.englandfootballonline.com/cmpwc/CmpWC1986Finals.html

[Alex 30458]

 

3 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

 

"SLICK ENGLAND CONFOUND THEIR CRITICS
"...significantly reshaped team swept Poland out of their path...
"The widely criticized 4-3-3 formation was abandoned...in favour of four men in midfield and two up front.
"...a younger, better-balanced look...
"...exhilarating first-half football..." - Daily Telegraph, 12 June 1986

 

http://www.englandfootballonline.com/cmpwc/CmpWC1986Finals.html

It was quite a subtle difference formation-wise though, it's not like England played two wide men in those first two group matches. They had Lineker and Hately upfront and Waddle played in a sort of free role taking up positions on either wing. It was actually quite similar to how he played at Newcastle when you had Beardsley and Keegan upfront and Waddle playing on whichever wing took his fancy. I suppose injury / suspension did force Bobby Robson's hand to make changes but Bryan Robson's injury undoutedly weakened the midfield (and him and Wilkins were replaced by similar types of central midfielders in Peter Reid and Steve Hodge). Waddle would've been dropped anyway because he'd been ineffectual and Trevor Steven came in for him. Steven was a different type of player but still arguably a 'winger' so you still had 3 central midfielders and a more natural wide man as with the first two games. The biggest impact on improving the side was definitely pairing Beardsley with Lineker which wasn't forced on Bobby Robson due to injury or suspension.

[Dr Gloom 19839]

this is quite an interesting with some good quotes from terry fenwick

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/football-england-at-the-world-cup-1986-mexico-robsons-rebels-left-punch-drunk-1163202.html

[Dr Gloom 19839]

hoddle is one of those players that would have been a dead cert to play regularly for most other countries, but the english way has long been to favour the grafters rather than the "luxury" players  

[Alex 30458]

12 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

hoddle is one of those players that would have been a dead cert to play regularly for most other countries, but the english way has long been to favour the grafters rather than the "luxury" players  

He got a canny few caps (especially for that era when 50+ was more like getting on for 100 now) and he was technically excellent but his athleticism and his ability to impose himself in games let him down at times and was why he was very good rather than great.

[Dr Gloom 19839]

He didn’t even make the plane to Italia 90, despite playing for Monaco where he was adored by their fans, and you had the likes of Steve McMahon, Steve Hodge etc there. I can’t remember - was he injured? I suppose he was getting on a bit then but I think he copped a lot of flak generally as a player over his lack of work rate that managers of other countries would have forgiven - it’s the English way.  

 

Not that you can be too critical of SBR’s squad given how they performed in the end. But I think it was Platini who said if Hoddle has been French he would have easily got over 100 caps.

 

strange bloke though but.

[Alex 30458]

He'd have struggled to get a game for France in that era let alone got 100 caps. Given the amount of caps he got (which was a lot) what makes you think he should've played more based on those England performances? He was a very good player but trying to elevate him to World class status and blaming the managers of that era (Greenwood and SBR never had an issue with good footballers) is just misty-eyed nostalgia tbh

Edit: the point I'm trying to make is that, rather than the England managers of the era being suspicious of Hoddle as a footballer and preferring grafters (which is what I assume you mean by the English way) the opposite is true. They actually wanted Hoddle in the side because he offered something different and they kept giving him chances. But he never performed well enough often enough when he was picked to make himself a permanent fixture in the side

Edited November 3, 2017 by Alex

[Dr Gloom 19839]

Platini reckons he’d have won loads more caps if he was French because they put more trust in players with magic in their boots than the English and don’t fill their World Cup squads with honest grafters like steve hodge.

 

Wenger spoke very highly of him when he managed him at Monaco too. 

 

The bloke is clearly away with the fairies mind. Faith healing wanker. 

 

Great player though. I’d have him in my team over butch wilkins any day. 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2017 by Dr Gloom

[zerosum 234]

oh how much could we do with beardsley in his prime right now at the toon 

Edited November 4, 2017 by zerosum

[Dr Gloom 19839]

6 hours ago, Alex said:

Yeah, you already made those points but none of them are your own recollections or opinions

 

I was a bit too young to really member hoddle in his pomp so I’m mainly going off stuff I read and my early memories of him as a player versus the other midfielders who played for England in that era.

 

Platini actually said he thought he would and won 150 caps for France. An exaggeration perhaps but it shows how he he was thought of there compared to here where his talent was appreciated but he was viewed with suspicion. 

 

I see parallels with today with the kind of players English managers value - grafters rather than players touched by genius but who don’t run around at a millions miles an hour all game. 

 

Jordan Henderson is a good modern example - I have no idea why he is so highly rated. Ben Arfa another example closer to home, on the other end of the scale.

 

It’s something Hoddle obviously felt as well - that he was under appreciated here, going on stuff he’s said

 

Check out this passage from this piece:

 

More precisely, English football did not understand him. Although he won 53 caps for England, he never established himself in the side, never marked out a position that was his. In an era dominated by the stamina and steel of Bryan Robson, Hoddle was deemed a luxury that the national team could only occasionally afford, and rarely when it mattered.

 

He was accused of lacking heart, guts, balls, arsehole and all the other body parts that made up the typical English player of the Eighties. His critics beyond White Hart Lane called him a Fancy Dan. Brian Clough once said that it took 'moral courage to play the way Hoddle does'. But Tommy Smith, the notorious Liverpool hardman, accused Hoddle of going missing when someone - Smith, for example - got stuck into him. The point of all this was made clear in the nickname that Hoddle was awarded: Glenda. 

'People talk about character,' Hoddle complained. 'But what is character? Is it tearing around at 100 miles an hour? It makes me laugh. If I thought defending was that important I could improve my game by 50 per cent. But it isn't.'

 

Believing that a prophet is without honour in his own land, Hoddle joined AC Monaco, then managed by Arsène Wenger. Monaco won the French championship in Hoddle's first year. 'He is the most skilful player I have ever worked with,' Wenger later said. 'His control was superb and he had perfect body balance. His skill in both feet was uncanny... I couldn't understand why he hadn't been appreciated in England. Perhaps he was a star in the wrong period, years ahead of his time.' 

Michele Platini famously claimed that had Hoddle been born French 'he would have won 150 caps'. As Jean-Luc Ettori, Monaco's club captain at the time, recently put it: 'For us Glenn was le bon dieu - he was a god. There's nothing else to say.'

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2003/oct/05/newsstory.tottenhamhotspur

[Alex 30458]

39 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

I was a bit too young to really member hoddle in his pomp so I’m mainly going off stuff I read

You don't say

[Dr Gloom 19839]

3 minutes ago, Alex said:

You don't say

 

Youre not that much older surely? Are you saying you remember watching hoddle regularly as a boy? I was 7 going on 8 during Mexico 86. Like I said, my earliest football memory.

[Dr Gloom 19839]

And anyway, what’s wrong with being informed by what hoddle and people who played or managed him at the time said on the matter? I was a young boy in the mid 80s and I wouldn’t pretend to remember it like it was yesterday - and there wasn’t the wall to wall football on tv that we have today back then even if you do. 

 

But the point about hoddle being seen as a luxury player in England, despite being adored in France, is a fair one. 

[Park Life 70]

17 hours ago, Tdansmith said:

Jumpers for goalposts.

Rush goalie!

[Tdansmith 2131]

8 hours ago, zerosum said:

oh how much could we do with beardsley in his prime right now at the toon 

Obviously

[Howmanheyman 26967]

5 hours ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

Youre not that much older surely? Are you saying you remember watching hoddle regularly as a boy? I was 7 going on 8 during Mexico 86. Like I said, my earliest football memory.

I'm with Alex on this one, mind. Talented when he fancied it but a bit of a fanny.* Have you been talking to Spurs fans by any chance?

 

*take Beardsley, supremely talented footballer who grafted his bollocks off unlike hoddle.

[Dr Gloom 19839]

Obviously I’d take Pedro over Glenda