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And so in the debate of who is better how would you compare them? So tackles, successfull passes, key passes and assists aren't all aspects of an outfield players game? I deliberately didn't put goals in there as that is a pointless stat in this case. Oh and Moyes has played Arteta as a defensive midfielder all season (except against your lot which is the only game he hasn't) so it shows what you know anyway lol Besides its easy enough to mock the use of stats to back something up, but seeing as you're bringing nothing as an alternative then your post is pretty pointless tbh.

I would have thought the post where I listed would have demonstrated that there's no point in the debate as its completely subjective to who you watch week in week out. If you want me to list the players I think are better than those players i'll happily do it, even though I know you'll disagree: Ben Arfa - only played a handful of games in the premier league, better: Arteta Osman Fellaini Baines Cahill Saha Tiote - One season in the premier league: Arteta Fellaini Baines Saha Mr Rimmer sir - is that you? That exactly the kind of logic i'd expect from you sir, discounting the quality of players plying their trade for the first time in the premier league. That rules out space junk such as Andy Carroll, Van der Vaart, Javier Hernandez, Yaya Toure, David Silva, David Luiz, Luis Suarez, Apostolos Vellios etc etc Ergo this makes you a complete and utter Smeg Head. Mr Tiote is widely known throughtout the galaxy as being harder than a neutron star and you should never underestimate his capabilities. Smoke me a kipper... I'll be back for breakfast

Tiote v Arteta, Fellaini & Baines: Ok so i've done a bit of research to help in our discussion about who's better etc. Below are stats based on this season. Now the stats only go up to the "top 50" for each section, so I will note if a players stats aren't listed due to them not being in the top 50 for that particular stat with an N/A. Now i'll hold my hands up here and say Fellaini isn't better than Tiote based on these stats. He doesn't feature much in the top 50 so i'll take him out of the argument... so there you go Tiote is better than Fellaini based on my stats Tackles won per game: Tiote - 2.42 Baines - 1.46 Arteta - N/A So here it shows that Tiote is a very successful tackler when compared to Baines & Arteta Successful passes per game: Tiote - 42.57 Arteta - 38.39 Baines - 24.38 Interesting to see that whenever Tiote gets the ball he seems to find a team mate more often than Arteta or Baines... however that's just one side of the coin... the other is how effective that pass is... so lets dig a bit deeper: Key passes per game: Arteta - 1.53 Baines - 1.46 Tiote - N/A So these aren't assists, i've deliberately not looked at assists yet as we all know Baines has the 5th most assists of any player in Europe, so instead this stat looks at when the player passes the ball, just how effective it was, rather than a player just picking it up and knocking it sideways or backwards all the time. As you can see Tiote doesn't even figure in the top 50, so unfortunately i'm going to have to say that despite him using the ball well in regards keeping possesion, he doesn't actually appear to do a great deal with it compared to Arteta & Baines. Yellow cards every x number of games: Thought i'd drop this in seeing as someone criticised Fellaini's style of play earlier in this thread: Tiote - 2.16 Baines - 9.75 Arteta - 14 Wow so Tiote gets booked once every 2.16 games? Seems a bit dirty doesn't it? I'm not going to count this in the overall scores because its a bit pointless, but just thought i'd do it to show that despite what people think about Fellaini (who doesn't even feature in the top 50 of this stat, Tiote is THE most booked player in the league, and has commited the 2nd most fouls (only behind Kevin Davies). Assists per every x number of games: Baines - 3.5 Arteta - N/A Tiote - N/A So overall what can we conclude? That Baines is has less successful tackles per game, but his overall contribution in terms of key passes and assists is much greater than Tiote? That Arteta again is much more effective in terms of overall contribution to the team with again much more key passes than Tiote? Or that Tiote breaks up the play more effectively than either of these 2, but once he has doesn't really do anything else with it other than play a safe pass, which then in turn keeps possession and allows the team to build an attack? What have I proved with these stats? Not much, just that certain stats will allow anyone with bias to argue that their player is better than the oppositions. But hopefully at least i've shown that there is validity to my arguments, and that I can produce evidence to back up why my thoughts are what they are... I think credit is due for that at least (although I'm still not expecting anything other than abuse lol!)

Over 120 French League Appearances. 34 Champions League Appearances. 5 French League Titles 2 French Cups 2 French League Cups Before the age of 23, aye he's done fuck all. Mateja Kezman 1998–2000 Partizan 54 apps; 33 Goals 2000–2004 PSV Eindhoven 122 apps; 105 Goals 2000–2006 Serbia and Montenegro 49 apps; 17 Goals 2004–2005 Chelsea 25 apps; 4 Goals Alfonso Alves 2002–2003 Örgryte 39 apps; 23 Goals 2004–2006 Malmö FF 55 apps; 29 Goals 2006–2008 Heerenveen 39; 45 Goals 2008–2009 Middlesbrough 42; 10 Goals 2007 Brazil 8 apps; 1 Goal Just 2 examples out of many that I could give of players coming to this country with a big reputation (from inferior leagues), after being highly successful in other leagues, then failing badly to live up to the hype. So he's done "fuck all" in this country for anyone to compare him against established and "successful" premier league players. Especially when you are basing him being better than "x player" after a whole 3 starts and one as sub in this league. That's also not taking in to account his really bad injury that no-one knows how well he'll come back from. Now you lot on here keep maintaining i'm wrong, you're right etc, like I said before a lot of its down to the subjectivity and being passionate about your team and the players that play for it. Nowt wrong with that, its an admirable trait of the football supporter, and what is a supporter if they dont get behind their team and the players that play for it? However I can back up my arguments with stats and examples, so surely you must admit that there is at least some validity to my points?

I would have thought the post where I listed would have demonstrated that there's no point in the debate as its completely subjective to who you watch week in week out. If you want me to list the players I think are better than those players i'll happily do it, even though I know you'll disagree: Ben Arfa - only played a handful of games in the premier league, better: Arteta Osman Fellaini Baines Cahill Saha Tiote - One season in the premier league: Arteta Fellaini Baines Saha Thanks for the comedy. Leighton Baines is better than Ben Arfa! Tiote is worth more than all 4 of those players put together i.e. £20m. We went round in circles as you had fuck all clue about what i was saying. Ben Arfa has done fuck all. He's only played a handful of games, has had a bad injury and may or may not return the same player... so yeah I have fuck all clue about what you are saying and how you justify some of your arguments. Anyway i'm off home, have a good easter

Aye, he is capable of playing there as well. Moyes has always said he'd end up a CB though. Not sure about Rodwell tbh, Moyes says he see's his future as CB, but then plays him in the Cahill role sometimes. His defensive play is a bit poor and his positional sense is shocking. For me he'll be a really good box to box midfielder, as I just dont think he's developed certain aspects of his game enough to play CB. Not sure if thats Moyes' fault for not letting him develop in one set position, or just his natural progression has taken him to play a different role than expected

Ameobi is better than Beckford! I mean i dont really rate Beckford that highly but he's better than Ameobi. Gotta look at Baines assist stats I posted earlier in this thread... he's the best attacking left back in europe based on his stats this season, please go look at it as am sure you'll be surprised. However i'll give you credit for the team you picked as at least its a nice blend of the 2 teams rather than being a completely one sided view. I dont completely agree with it, but its a good attempt at being impartial which i applaud. Nope not from Merseyside originally... its a long story

I would have thought the post where I listed would have demonstrated that there's no point in the debate as its completely subjective to who you watch week in week out. If you want me to list the players I think are better than those players i'll happily do it, even though I know you'll disagree: Ben Arfa - only played a handful of games in the premier league, better: Arteta Osman Fellaini Baines Cahill Saha Tiote - One season in the premier league: Arteta Fellaini Baines Saha

Sorry but I completely disagree (no surprise there), you didnt "step down"? You were relegated... surely thats the defenition of "taking a step down" Out of all the clubs promoted you had the best chance of staying up and building on that the re-establish yourself as a premier league team. You don't have a right to be seen as an established premier league team yet regardless of how big your wage bill is/was in the championship. Yep the same players were galvanised by Houghton and pissed the league, he then got them off to a good start which after Pardew took over continued until recently when its tailed off. So under the right leadership these players play well and work for each other, under the wrong leadership they got you relegated. You have Pardew in charge... lets just see how things go next season before you make any bold predictions eh? Anyway this is going round in circles, so lets just end it there eh? You dont agree with me, I dont agree with you... no amount of bickering will solve that... plus i'm off home for 4 days in 10 mins and wont be wasting my precious non work time on footy forums lol

Again its subjective, i'll happily list players that I feel would get in the Toon team, i'm sure you'll disagree but then I already know that: Howard Jagielka Baines Heitinga Distin Osman Rodwell Fellaini Arteta Coleman Saha Beckford Cahill Wow look at all those players! Of course i'm listing them because I support the team they play for, and see more of them than I do of the Toon players. I'm sure you could happily replace all of them if you wanted to with Toon players... again because you support the team they play for... see what I mean about it being subjective? Its a pointless debate.

Erm sorry but I think you'll find I already said you kept premiership quality players? You should read what i've written before replying Never said you were a club with low wages and low revenues... My argument was that money isn't the only factor in staying in the league and building stability... and speaking of stability sacking the manager that pulled the team togather and got them promoted may still cause problems next season that aren't showing at the moment. You can list "Man U, Villareal, Deportivo La Coruna, Man City, Argentina etc" but those players got you relegated dont forget, so its not as black and white as you make it out to be. I have at no point said Newcastle are shit and will get relegated next season, you seem to think that by me saying top 10 would be a realistic goal i'm somehow defecting on your club. That's your opinion, you're entitled to it, its not like the Toon army are ever accused of having hugely inflated expectations which are never realised is it?

This assumes the reason we were relegated was because of a lack of quality. Whilst that may be true for the midfield we had at the time, the reasons were numerous and involved the most ridiculous chain of events ever seen at the club. Since then, we've addressed the midfield issue and its a high quality midfield even without Ben Arfa. Its also a decent defence tbh. I'd like to say our attack is shit but only Man U have scored more at home than us. Every one of your points is utter shite. You were in part relegated due to a lack of quality in your team... there is no such thing as "too good to go down". So yes your team is better equiped to survive this season than most as luckily your premier league standard players were on such large contracts you couldn't get rid of them, but again i've made the point several times that there's a big step up in the standard of opposition when being promoted. Not sure how my points are utter shite?

Actually your argument is incorrect as you're saying the only variable between promoted teams and established teams is the willingness to spend large amounts on wages, when actually the financial side is a very very small part of it. There are many factors that relate to promoted teams, some are the quality of the players they already have in their team, the ability to adapt to playing better opposition week in week out, the ability to adapt to playing teams that play a better and more accurate game of football where mistakes are punsihed 9 times out of 10, the pressure associated with playing in the big time, sacking your manager and replacing him with one who's track record suggests he'll not lead the club to any sort of success or stability. And i'm sure there are many more factors other than "we already paid good wages" which despite what you protest is essentially what your argument is. "The step up" isn't just about expenditure, in fact that is just a very small part of it. You take a dim view of an opposing fan commenting on this? Don't really care tbh, if enough people felt I was speaking out of turn i'm sure i'd just get banned... that hasn't happened yet, and until it does i'll speak my mind... as will you, so really both being members on here we have a right to air our opinions regardless of which side of the footballing fence we sit on. I'm not going to debate with you which Everton players are better than Tiote and Ben Arfa, its a pointless debate and is completely subjective to who you support and watch every week. Also watching a player playing in a foreign league is different to how sucessful they may become in the premier league. I'm sure many Chelsea fans couldn't wait to see Kezman in action, or Boro fans with Alfonso Alves... the fact of the matter is no-one can judge him on a handful of games as being better than anyone.

Haha pretty much!

Better how out of interest? Its the whole debate about what makes a club "bigger" or "better". Are you comparing how you are run? We're skint, your owners a cock... which ever is better is just really a lesser of 2 evils. League position? We're ahead of you and are a regular top 8 team, you aren't and were only relegated recently. with your chaotic board its hard to say where you'll be in 2 seasons time, who will be manager, who will be playing in your team. Yes you have a better stadium, and more fans attending matches, but its easy to say ner ner we're bigger and better than you, whilst doing a silly dance and pointing, but in real terms there's pro's and minuses to both our clubs

I wont disagree with much of what you've said there as there certainly is a lot of factors that can play a part over the course of a season. For us selling Rodwell would actually have little impact on our 1st team as he hardly plays... he has a lot of potential but he can't get in the squad above Arteta, Cahill, Fellaini, and even Osman now who has been outstanding the last 6 weeks. So selling him might actually be a good thing (short term), as it'd allow us to strengthen the 1st team with a reliable and consistent striker, which would really help us kick on again. I didnt expect people on here to agree with me... after all i'm on enemy ground so to speak here when giving my views, and if anyone of you came across to the Everton forums you'd find you'd be shot down straight away too lol I think i've made some valid points though, whether anyone on here will agree or not is another matter but I stand by them.

You dont have the squad though thats the whole point of this argument isnt it? Not at the moment, but the whole point of what I just said was that given 2-3 quality players, we will be better than Everton. If we had the squad now, we'd be in 7th now, simples. But thats going on the logic that we wont also improve our team with 2-3 quality players, and that Bolton and Villa dont, which isn't realistic. If everyone else improves by 2-3 players you'll be no closer unless they are world class which obviously costs £20m+ per player the man speaks perfect sense. So simple and so obvious. Wow are you backing me up? If so i wasn't expecting anyone to do that so thanks

We have guarantees that it will be spent. Well yeah, there is that possibility. You've pretty much admitted that we're already not far behind you on the field if £35m makes us obviously better. Not bad for a newly promoted side eh? ...When you've had to bust your guts for years to earn the right for people to consider you relatively likely to finish in the region of 5-8 in the league. Must upset you when you've granted Bolton the same status when their league position in the last 3 seasons was 16th, 13th, 14th. Sorry forgot to address the bolton issue. You see Bolton established themselves as a premier league team, and now Owen Coyle has taken them to the next level. I have a lot of respect for Coyle and the job he's done there (at at Burnley previously) and I expect Bolton to be even better next year. Under Coyle I find it hard to believe they will suddenly drop back down the the lower reaches of the table. I dont think anyone should be upset with Bolton being seen as a top 8 or 9 team these days, they have some good players and an excellent manager.

You dont have the squad though thats the whole point of this argument isnt it? Not at the moment, but the whole point of what I just said was that given 2-3 quality players, we will be better than Everton. If we had the squad now, we'd be in 7th now, simples. But thats going on the logic that we wont also improve our team with 2-3 quality players, and that Bolton and Villa dont, which isn't realistic. If everyone else improves by 2-3 players you'll be no closer unless they are world class which obviously costs £20m+ per player Tiote and Ben arfa are world class and only cost a fraction of that figure. Well yeah the odd player can be picked up on the cheap, but its difficult and certainly not a common occurance, and not a solid model for recruiting world class players on a consitant basis

We have guarantees that it will be spent. Well yeah, there is that possibility. You've pretty much admitted that we're already not far behind you on the field if £35m makes us obviously better. Not bad for a newly promoted side eh? ...When you've had to bust your guts for years to earn the right for people to consider you relatively likely to finish in the region of 5-8 in the league. Must upset you when you've granted Bolton the same status when their league position in the last 3 seasons was 16th, 13th, 14th. Sorry I totaly misread the post I replied to there, I thought it was saying £35m would give Newcastle a better team than the current one? Thought it was a strange argument lol

You dont have the squad though thats the whole point of this argument isnt it? Not at the moment, but the whole point of what I just said was that given 2-3 quality players, we will be better than Everton. If we had the squad now, we'd be in 7th now, simples. But thats going on the logic that we wont also improve our team with 2-3 quality players, and that Bolton and Villa dont, which isn't realistic. If everyone else improves by 2-3 players you'll be no closer unless they are world class which obviously costs £20m+ per player Well then its a good thing we've got 35 million pounds then! Its not easy to improve by 2-3 players, but Newcastle are in a significantly better position to do this in the offseason than Everton given your financial situation. In all likelyhood Moyes will ship out a lot of the deadwood this summer + one of either Fellaini or Rodwell for £20m. So the chances are we will also have money to spend... maybe not the £35m you quoted (if Ashley will actually spend that and I wouldn't be so sure), and i'd trust Moyes with £15m more than I'd trust Pardew with £35m thats for sure

You dont have the squad though thats the whole point of this argument isnt it? Not at the moment, but the whole point of what I just said was that given 2-3 quality players, we will be better than Everton. If we had the squad now, we'd be in 7th now, simples. But thats going on the logic that we wont also improve our team with 2-3 quality players, and that Bolton and Villa dont, which isn't realistic. If everyone else improves by 2-3 players you'll be no closer unless they are world class which obviously costs £20m+ per player

Its all subjective though based on who you watch on a regular basis. Baines this season has been immense and brings so much to our team in an attacking sense: "So far this season he has assisted 11 Premier League goals and only Nani (18) has more. As for defenders there is no contest. He has seven more than closest rivals Iain Evatt and Branislav Ivanovic, who both have four. Perhaps a better insight comes when you compare the 26-year-old to the players perceived to be the division’s best in his position. In the time it has taken Baines to create 27 assists, Ashley Cole and Patrice Evra lag behind on 11 apiece. Indeed, the Everton man’s tally over that period can only be bettered by four men in England’s top flight – Cesc Fabregas, Frank Lampard, Ashley Young and Nani. Concentrating just on this season again, Baines’ 11 assists gives him the fifth best tally across all of Europe’s top divisions. Nani (18), Lionel Messi (17), Dani Alves (14) and Cagliari’s Andrea Cossu (12) are the only players to have created more." I gotta be honest and say I can't think of anyone I'd want to swap Baines with at this moment in time. That's an excellent return, I agree. It's completely atypical compared to the rest of his career prior to now though, isn't it? I think he's a good player having an outstanding season rather than an outstanding player. I'd say the others mentioned - Cole, Evra and Enrique are all better defensively too. Always been a good going forward and gets a decent amount of assists, but this season he's taken that next step to become an outstanding all round player. He's 26 so approaching his prime so I expect him to continue this next year rather than it being a blip

Oh dear how unbelievable embarrasing for you! Baines - scored 4 goals and created 11 Enrique? - Over to you! If I wanted to sound smart i'd use a much more complex saying than "walk before you can run" which lets face it isn't the most mind blowing of sayings Being a left back isn't about creating goals and scoring, you should know that. Sure, Baines might be more prolific going forward and has better freekicks, but is no match to Jose Enrique defensively. And I'd like my leftback to prevent goals, I have strikers to score them! (Well, not at the moment, but you know what I mean ) I'd say its about both attacking and defending in this day and age, Baines is good defensively and outstanding going forward... he's the complete package which surely counts for something?

Well we usually stuff Man City so thats not a fixture i'm concerned by, but yeah the other 2 will be tricky to say the least. Look i'm not trying to say Everton are the greatest team ever, i've already stated that we have underchieved this season, and i've said the Toon have done well. But its about setting realistic expectations. Finishing 7th just isn't particularly realistic, neither is continually expecting moyes to perform miracles on fuck all budget, but then i'm not saying he can. I wouldn't say Everton should be aiming to finish in the top 4 because its not a realistic expectation, and neither is Newcastle United finishing top 7 next year. Top 12? Now there's something thats achievable, maybe even top 10 if someone wanted to be ambitious, but I just don't get the thinking behind "buy one or two players and we'll be better than Everton, Villa, Bolton etc etc" because it's just not true, and pretty disrespectful to those other teams, who have built up their squads over several seasons and have earned the right to be considered amongst the top 8 or 9 teams in the league. Ha! Spending several seasons cultivating mediocrity doesn't mean you've got a 'right' to be there. Its not disrespect when you have the squad. Bolton have only been decent this year, and have spent most previous years after Allardyce being shit, what gives them the "right" to be considered for the Top 7? I'd rank those three teams youre considering as Aston Villa, Everton, then Bolton, and I firmly believe that right now NUFC are about 1-2 players behind Bolton, 2-3 behind Everton, and 3-4 behind Aston Villa. You dont have the squad though thats the whole point of this argument isnt it?