Rayvin

It's a harder sell for me - several generations who will have experienced life inside and outside of the EU, who were broadly pro-EU before leaving that they have to convince. They had it easy with Brexit because they were selling bullshit which stuck because of the fact that much of what the new reality would look like was 'unknown'. Now it's known on both sides, I struggle to imagine where they get the same leverage from for their argument.

The UK isn't going to exist all that much longer though, not in current form. I mean ok, let's take your scenario through to conclusion - the basic premise is we're too proud and stupid to do anything about this no matter how bad it gets, and we continue on into ever more assured oblivion with no one at any point doing anything about it. That's bleaker than anything I've ever put down on this forum. That's bleaker than the idea that the Tories could win the next GE ffs. Ideally we'd join a more federalised version of Europe so that we can become part of a United States style entity which locks us in for good, but the EU itself isn't there yet. I guess the thing I struggle with is who within the UK won't be wanting us to return once the children of the empire generation have died off? Is it really going to be that hard a sell? Why would anyone in this country want to live in the hell of post-Brexit UK once the elderly aren't chaining us to it anymore? You've posted yourself how much opinion polls are swinging on this now. We've also seen how unlikely we are to get a US trade deal, and given our stance on China, increasingly there too. The wheels have come off Brexit already, it's being shown up for what it is. The path has to lead somewhere and we have literally no other option - at least for now - than walking back to the EU. And the longer this goes on, the faster the pace of that process becomes IMO. Irrespective of what Starmer warbles on about to his friends in the tabloids. EDIT - with respect of the EU, I think we will eventually be able to demonstrate enough enthusiasm for them to agree. I don't see how significant amounts of anti-EU sentiment are generated now that we've walked off the cliff.

Threaten in the sense of other countries observing that it is possible to be functional outside of the EU, not directly threatening their economic clout. So what I'm effectively saying is that if we are able to appear as a semi successful nation again outside of the EU, then we cease to be something they can point to as a 'danger of leaving' and start becoming something that the right wingers throughout Europe can hold up as a success story. This is what I mean by threat. As for the French military, size isn't everything. The EU was very reliant on the UK for leadership on this side of things and the French don't seem hugely willing to step into that gap. There was a reason Putin took us out of Europe instead of France.

On the decade component sure, it took us 5 years to leave and I can't see any quick way of reversing that. What I disagree with is the idea that the EU wouldn't want us back. The Ukraine war and the fact that they've asked us to be part of a joint security committee underscores how important the UK was as a leader in security and defence, something they do not have a ready replacement for. On top of that I still feel that a taking back in member that left is a bigger win than having one on the outside. We won't suffer forever from Brexit, eventually the country will get its act together and start growing again - the longer that goes on, the bigger threat we become to the European project. Far better to have us back inside. Important note here, I'm not saying we wouldn't grow faster inside the EU - we obviously would - but the economy will eventually pivot to whatever will work for a post EU version of the UK. It'll be shit for workers but we will find a way to attract business.

It's an opinion piece that shares nothing that isn't readily apparent but ignores the positives of rejoining for both sides. He's not a decision maker in this, he's just one man with a view. And honestly that view isn't new. Literally none of it. We'll see what happens as the country becomes evermore enraged at living standards. Moreover we'll see what happens in the EU as the UK does eventually start to get its act together.

This is absolutely pathetic from the Tories - I mean there's not been a single thing they've done well so it's not surprising, but they can't even deliver what their core vote wants. This is because running a country is based on analysis of evidence and facts, and not populist nonsense. We've been a rare case IMO in that the past few years have really given the right enough rope to fully hang themselves. Full on market liberalism? Fucked. Close the borders to foreigners? Fucked. Economic Competence? Fucked. All the Tories are and ever were is right wing media spin and preying on people's insecurity over their rationality.

Think it's more centrist/internationalist than 'left'. Both sides are ultimately anti-globalist.

Scotland decreasing too, oddly.

I agree for what it's worth, much better to strengthen cultural ties with close neighbours, achieves better levels of integration, less social disruption and so on.

Yeah but if you talk to any middle of the road intelligence Brexiteer they'll now tell you that this is fairer than only taking Europeans and exactly how we should be operating - and that actually, you're the racist for wanting Europeans only. The truth about what anyone actually wanted isn't as important as "winning the argument". Not that they're doing that either.

These fucking whoppers who go on about other people having weak minds when they're standing knee deep in bat shit crazy always amuse me. Le Tissier recently announced himself as their Lord and saviour, I believe.

IMO we shouldn't accept this armband thing but it doesn't surprise me at all that the FA have given in. This is cynical as fuck btw, Qatar waiting until everyone is there before rolling out their insane rules on everything. Underlines how much of a disgrace this is.

At least it looks like a questionable decision now rather than outright corruption

Yeah that's bullshit if that's the line

From the Guardian: As someone at Guardian Towers has just said, the goalkeeper’s incompetence saved Qatar. When he missed the original free-kick, it hit the head of an Ecuador player (I think), at which point there was only one defender (and no goalkeeper) between Valencia and the goal. It was very tight, but I think that’s what happened.

Yeah I am honestly encouraged with where we are on this now. Finally some daylight getting in.

The follow up one in the replies where they actually admit it is also worth a watch. Fucking spanners

Guess he hasn't kissed anyone in the House of Lords.

I agree, a bloke who wants to be Prime Minister in this country can't display principles or any genuine aspect of his character. This may not annoy you, but it pisses me right off

Then they need to practice better hygiene ffs.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/nov/18/keir-starmer-i-kissed-a-tory-and-not-ashamed-labour Fuck me. I try to ignore this stuff from Starmer, I really do. "I have friends who are Tories, and long may that continue". Just... what?? So when you look for friends, you distinctly look for people whose worldview is an anathema to decency? I am friends with zero Tories, and I would never date one - not even because I'd choose not to be, but as someone politically engaged I can tell you right now it would be fucking impossible. It's not a difference of opinion mate, it's an entire worldview. It's not that we all want the same things and disagree about how to get it, it's that one side want a stable and prosperous country in which all its people can share, and the other side want to siphon everything into their own pockets and those of their mates, while simultaneously letting themselves be weaponised against the nation by hostile foreign powers. There should be precisely zero Tories in a patriotic nation that cares about its people and puts the national interest first.

Not to be contrary but I know one who is a really lovely guy - but he was an orphan so perhaps avoided some of the cultural idiosyncrasies that he might otherwise have received from his parents.

Was more of a rant than a balanced assessment tbf but a rant generally borne out of Boomers telling me how worthless younger generations are. My dad is also a socialist btw - so I agree, it's a generalisation. Let's nuance it and just say we all know the specific people I'm referring to.

Just thinking that through by the way, I joined the workforce full time in 2008, right at the start of the credit crunch or whatever it was. Since about a year or two after that point, I've had the Tories hammering wages, growth and living standards - and now will have another two decades of falling prospects irrespective of who is in charge, thanks to this fucking political party. So that's 30 years of my working life that has been fucked by the Tories. 30 fucking years. Obviously I'm very aware that it's not just about me and this goes for everyone but the timing seems quite neat in my case. Just fuck all of them. And the boomers wonder why there's no hope for the future in younger generations. You burned the future to the ground you fuckers.