Rayvin

As much as I enjoy the banter, I do believe there is a place for truth in discourse, and I am not ashamed of that. I do get things wrong. I would like to add this though: Just came across it by chance tbf

It's not even about Trump. That's a piss poor effort ewerk that comment is in reference to HF walking me through all the various wars and aggressions that democrat presidents had engaged in. I was comparing Clinton to Obama and her husband, following those comments. I'm going to be charitable about this and help you out because while I don't think I ever said what you think I did, I had a belief that Trump might be a better alternative than Clinton because I felt that there was growing anti-establishment populism coming from the right, and that an incompetent right wing leader might be less dangerous than a competent one, and may act as a pressure release. We can't know if I was right or wrong about that but De Santis might show us what a competent Trump looks like. Having said all this, I had a brief scan through that thread myself and there are plenty of comments in there from me talking about how awful it would be if Trump wins.

De Santis is who I meant indeed

85% supposedly support abortion in some form or another. Maybe but I doubt it. We have Trump on steroids to deal with next time, it's going to be pretty awful.

Me too but it never hurts to waste a bit of someone's time when they're making claims like this. I recall the last one turned out to be out of context so it's not like ewerk has a perfect track record here. That said, if I said it I'm happy to acknowledge I was wrong, as ever. Although I'm sure there would have been plenty of opportunity to do this before now

Can you dig me up that comment?

How in the fuck did the US left let them win this? Apparently a 5-4 victory although one other person agreed but didn't whatever that means. As it stands though, if Ruth Bader Ginsburg had stood the fuck down instead of dying on the throne, maybe we wouldn't be here.

The fact that it's happening in the time following our defeat of Trump is like another slap in the face. Doesn't even matter when we win, we still dance to their fucking tune. I was in a call with a US client who stopped us mid discussion to excuse herself such was her shock and emotional feeling over it. I think she was actually in tears. Feels like distant lunacy to me sometimes but ultimately there are a large number of Americans who believe the same things we do and are stuck with this insanity.

Roe vs Wade overturned. Pretty incredible victory for right wing America.

They're calling him Boris too, the bastards

Aye, that's something. I have the feeling he really thought his contributions to Partygate would see off Johnson as well. Doesn't wield the power he thought he did, and never will again. That's a satisfying thought at the very least.

On the other hand, one of the key architects of this treasonous and unpatriotic outcome (don't mind me, I just like throwing these truthful but needless words in there in the hope someone who voted that way is mildly annoyed by it) is now reinventing himself as a public speaker: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jun/23/dominic-cummings-attempts-career-reboot-as-political-speaker So who knows where we go from here. I hope he's also delivering his speech in Russian though, he owes them that much.

I just went over to the Mail to see how they were getting on with the days news an the number of upvoted comments on there that are blaming Brexit for the mess we are in is actually pretty staggering. Maybe they're being brigaded by lefties, it's possible, but even so. Will the penny drop, one day? Even if we aren't going to rejoin, even if that argument can't be made, we should at least be able to say what a fucking disaster this has been and start reconciling with each other, start looking at how to stop such traitorous sabotage being committed against this country again.

Totally agree on your assessment of the LDs there, and that link failing is... well it's not good. Basically the same as how I see Labour in terms of their reluctance to push policy, though I suppose they're the experts. I agree with your final paragraph. Our institutions and messaging is too politicised, and should be set up in a way that it can be handled independently and in a non-partisan fashion, as much as possible. Not sure on the advisors bit, I didn't watch any of that so can't comment. My view on the disaster of 2019 was actually, again, that we didn't get a functioning electoral pact going. I think it would have been quite different otherwise since I note that Remain favouring parties actually had a larger overall number of votes. That's not everything it takes in FPTP of course, but even so.

I would like to think Labour is a bit more than slightly left of centre even under Starmer tbh... As said, I'll throw in behind PR in any sense. I still think we should do a deal with the devil on that tbh. Reform UK is a PR focused party that seems to be hovering on about 4%. Farage is a campaigner at heart and for all that we all hate him, he could help us secure this. I do share your concerns on that eventual vote though.

Does it ever bother you that we don't know what they stand for on key issues like this? I know you believe this to be strategy, and it will be, but I don't think it's the strategy you believe it to be. Your view is that they have their plans and policies and that we can trust them to pop up with those at the right moment and reveal that they've been fully in step with us all along. Right? What if they're just seeing which way the wind blows? That's what I think they're doing. And the more we shut up, the less the wind blows our way. They are career politicians and Labour in particular has spent the past 12 years reacting to things rather than getting out ahead of anything. Trust has already been broken, it's difficult to ignore that.

Sorry are we talking our wants in terms of strategy? I was just outlining my overall wishlist of political outcomes. PR may well enable EU re-entry but I don't care about it as an issue more than EU re-entry itself. I believe in the EU dream and I believe the only way to make the world safe is through large blocs of countries supporting each other and moving towards ever greater union. I would have surrendered my British passport and citizenship for an EU one very happily if the time ever came. PR matters to me because I can now see the horrors of our system without it, and because it is the ultimate revenge that can be delivered to the Tories for pissing all over us for 12 fucking years. It may help us get back to the EU sooner, it probably will, but the satisfaction I'll get from the Conservatives being utterly fucked by it is my main motivation. Remove the enemy for good. That is a long term plan I can support happily.

I can take or leave Scotland because they're a backdoor into the EU again if nothing else. Quite happy for the Scots to call that without my input tbh. I'd have it as: 3 1 -- overhaul of press standards, formal and legally enforced codes of conduct for ministers, Greater constitutional safeguards 2 I mean there's loads I want but the long term issues need the pressure faster.

Scour manifestos for the most EU aligned position and/or pivot to PR if that's on the table. If not for Labour, the LDs or Greens will have it. I don't want to spend the rest of my life in this shit mate. And for all that the current iteration of the Tories are a really bad moment in general, they're not actually the long term problem anymore. I'll vote wherever I feel I'm most aligned versus chances of winning. Labour will have to do less to get my vote than the LDs or Greens (due to a far higher chance of power), but they will have to do something.

Well then we may all have a lot less to argue about in time because I'll start telling people that Starmer is the second coming of Christ if he backs proper PR.

So for me, I don't believe Starmer is capable of standing up to the right wing press (because he never has), I don't believe he has any vision whatsoever for where we are going.... but I would vote for him if he came out in favour of policies that matter to me. He's coming up zero on both sides of the argument for me so far unless they really do go for PR which, as I've said many times, would instantly gain him my vote.

Are Labour in favour of it? This conversation becomes really simple for me if they are because I fully agree. But I wasn't aware they'd said as much.

You presumably mostly agreed with his policies though. Voting for policies, not people, I would argue is more grown up

Aye I was talking to a friend about Labour's front bench competence the other day and I have to agree, there is genuine strength there. Although one person that threw me off a bit was Rachel Reeves. I'm not sure I've heard her name come up at all, and yet she's shadow chancellor. I found that pretty odd tbh but maybe I just haven't paid enough attention. But Starmer, Cooper, Lammy, etc. There's solidity there.

Well, my grumbling aside, Labour look like they can win. I'm concerned about what the picture looks like without Johnson - who will surely not make it to the next GE - but the signs are decent if we can maintain an electoral pact. I've no idea where we go from there really but I hope it's not led by the Mail and friends.