Rayvin

Fair enough, but where does that leave us now. We're not going to break down the NK regime in Kim's lifetime and possibly beyond, so we're looking at another 40-50 years of this. And they're going to become more and more able to project a nuclear threat as time goes on. Eventually, someone is going to have to do something.

I agree, that's been the American Imperialist weapon for the second half of the last century, but NK appear to be absolutely impervious to it so far.

But it's different now that they have the potential to cause significant destructive damage. It's not just the US who will be concerned about that, it's literally everyone in the surrounding region except China. If we do nothing, in 5-10 years Japan will have nuked up too. They've been talking about it for some time, and it's because of NK. Regional tensions will escalate and I'm not sure that the arena is big enough for that many power players. Having said that - if we did go carrot rather than stick, maybe we could encourage them into a greater state of global openness through trade... but I'm just not convinced it'll ever happen.

I think you're overconcerned about Chinese threat potential tbh but I can't say for certain that you're wrong - I think a lot depends on how informed the US is keeping China in all of this - despite the bluster, there are significant backchannels in place between the two. China isn't nearly as hostile to the US as they claim to be for their domestic audience. But I could be wrong. I don't think they're a significant military threat mind you... they've only just launched their first aircraft carrier and its a refurb. Decades away from matching the US and Europe.

No chance they're seriously considering that. Although this may be enough for Trump...

I dunno, I did a lot of reading on Chinese academic literature on North Korea and while there's an element of opportunity there, the Chinese government is constantly annoyed that NK acts as a destabilising force on their border. I think they'd prefer the question settled (obviously as favourably to China as possible). I think a non-nuclear covert strike might do it. It's hard to imagine that they have the military infrastructure to survive if the head was cut off the snake - but you never know I suppose. Agree that 10-15 years ago would have been better. But we are where we are, and do you think there's a non-military solution in the offing if we wait longer?

Yeah I'd say that's more or less the position I thought we were in. Nothing to worry about in the short term but further than that we'll just have to see how it goes.

That's how I see it. Better now than later. If war is going to happen one way or another, it's better now. The longer we leave it, the worse that war becomes. If there was another way of solving this, then fine - but after 30 odd years of this nonsense, I'm not convinced this is ever going to get better. Soft power doesn't penetrate NK. They're really fucking good at holding power domestically, the cultural brainwashing strategy that we use elsewhere in the world isn't working. I remain convinced that China doesn't want that regime there, but simply can't see an option for dealing with them without a heavy political cost to themselves. If NK goes under, they and SK get to split millions of impoverished, underskilled North Koreans. It's telling that China has mobilised its forces along the border - they've done this to resist an influx of refugees if war breaks out. Plus, as a humanitarian thing, we've left the North koreans to live a life of abject poverty and misery. When the regime finally falls, the stories we'll hear about life under the Kims will be chilling. The question is, can we save more people than we'd lose, by having this war now rather than later.

Which makes a US led pre-emptive strike a logical course of action if war is considered to be becoming inevitable.

I don't think we'd be involved in this conflict. Can we even project power that far any more? This is the US' issue alone - NK are no threat to Europe whatsoever.

I think their best hope is that NK totally focuses on the US. Having said that, if this kicks off SK might go straight over the border themselves. The sooner they take the regime down, the fewer casualties there'll be.

Was just reading that they're undertaking an urgent review of their capabilities to intercept missiles. Seems certain that they'd be in trouble. In fact, there seems no outcome from the whole thing that would be beneficial to them, even if the US won with minimal casualties.

Yeah but see NK's response. They've stated they'll launch a pre-emptive strike against any US aggression. Interesting that they've made no threats beyond self defence. The thing is NK must know that there's no endgame where they win. They won't want war.

Ok, further reading tells me that NK have managed to attach nukes to ICBMs. There's no benefit in attacking them on that basis, the opportunity for Western involvement has been missed IMO. Doubt anything will come of this.

I still don't consider the taking down of NK to be a bad thing. They're a constant antagonist in the region and even China would want rid of them if it didn't mean a war on their doorstep. Unlike Syria, they've not got a Western instigated civil war going on. Having said that, Trump is going against his word in getting involved in all of this. He was supposed to be isolationist. While not being blind to the global apocalypse scenario, if he actually solves the NK problem then he'll have accomplished something undeniably positive.

Aye, I think we can all agree on that.

Yep, and so again, it's totally normal to want engagement. I thoroughly enjoyed the debates I had with people on here back before Corbyn was cool, so I can relate.

I'm not having a go at you with that statement, but I'm afraid I can't agree that you're interested in the truth. I don't see why you can't retain a skeptical outlook on everything and still take up the position that is supported by the largest amount of factual evidence. That would be an act of associating yourself with the truth. The reality is, you'd love to find the truth if it's the truth you believe in. Otherwise, you don't want to know. And that's fine - but it does rather mean that we should stop discussing this with you in a debating sense, and should simply only understand what your views are and leave it there. Ultimately, for us, this is like arguing the existence of God with someone of religious convictions.

At the risk of going fully armchair psychologist, I would suggest that his posting output would be less engaged with by the community if not espousing this particular position, and that this engagement is something he finds nourishing on some level.

I think we have to accept that Wolfy isn't interested in the truth. That's where we're struggling here. He's not bothered. He just wants to see the world in the way he wants to see it, truth be damned. It's not that he doesn't understand the points we're making, it's not that he's ignorant, he just doesn't want to know.

Plus you'll need it for your porn from next April

I use my proxy for streaming - too risky not too now IMO. All the tech savvy guys I know switched to proxies some time ago.

Agree with this. I think people are panicking a bit too much off the back of some snippets in the media. Also worth remembering that the media fully expect the whole Rafa project to fall apart because at Newcastle, that's how it always go. It's a safe bet for them to write the sorts of things they have done. Doesn't mean it's written in the stars though. Every direct quote from Rafa though shows little more than a general frustration with the situation concerning transfers. Add to that the fact that I read somewhere that he'd never walked away from a post before, I don't think we have to worry too much. I also don't understand why so many people think we're going to struggle to avoid the drop. The team we have may not be as 'high quality' as the one that got relegated, but they're harder working and with a better attitude. At the lower end of the PL, that stuff matters.

As opposed to the invisible kind? Visible Panties Network is definitely what I'm going to call it next time someone asks me what it means though