[Middle East Crisis]

Just now, Dr Gloom said:

If you can’t see any difference between Hamas and Israel then I think we better leave it. 

 

If that's what you took from my post then I'm sorry. But I agree on leaving it.

[Middle East Crisis]

Just now, Dr Gloom said:

I see lots of whataboutery used to defend  the Hamas attacks from the usual suspects, yes: Owen Jones, Novara media, Jeremy Corbyn’s old mate Chris Williamson (who Jezza diet want to expel from Labour)  likes to call them freedom fighters.

 

It’s funny that the same people wouldn’t defend Israel’s actions in any way, or in any circumstances. I wonder why that could possibly be….

 

But if you apply that logic back the other way it makes everyone who won't defend Hamas an Islamophobe.

 

What is actually needed here is to focus compassionately on why this has happened so that we can save people's lives, and not continue in a cycle of death.

[Middle East Crisis]

Just now, Kevin Carr's Gloves said:

I see no good guys in this at all.

 

You and me both.

[Middle East Crisis]

3 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

why do the left defend Hamas and not Israel?  Are Hamas the good guys?

 

Are the left defending Hamas? Do you think I'm defending Hamas? No one who accepts killing children as part of their solution to anything can be considered to be "the good guys".

[Only in America]

Any idea of the particular flavour of crazy for this one?

[Middle East Crisis]

1 minute ago, Dazzler said:

 

The problem is that this is not what Hamas are doing or have done. They have endangered the lives of Palestinians even more with their actions. They exist to wipe Israel and all Jews off the face of the earth, it's their sole aim - They will use innocent Palestinians as human shields to achieve this if they have to.

 

Hamas has never given a shit about Palestinian casualties, and they never will.

 

I would argue that the current Israeli government has the same attitude towards the Israeli citizens, though would not outwardly admit to it.

 

I read this as he's trying to point out that it isn't the fault of Jewish people for the acts of Hamas, which is completely true, as is it is not the fault of Muslims for the acts of the IDF.

 

I agree that Hamas are not protecting the Palestinian people, but that's not the point here. He has aimed that article at the global left and essentially set out that the 'noise' coming from left wing politics is "pro Hamas" rather than being "anti subjugation and death".

[Middle East Crisis]

And I do want to make clear that every time I say 'what about the Palestinians' it isn't in an attempt to downplay what happened to Israel, it's actually a doubtless vain hope that we can prevent it repeating. Fundamentally I think 'what about the Palestinians' is a crucially important question in this to safeguard innocent lives on both sides - as much as 'what about the Israelis'. There cannot be peace unless both sides accept it, so the experience of both in this conflict is relevant even if all we cared about was Israeli lives.

[Middle East Crisis]

6 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

i think he's trying to point out that hamas are fascist islamists and don't deserve our sympathy - what do you think he's trying to do? 

 

He's trying to reposition this so that the argument is around why the left is supporting Hamas, rather than what they are actually doing, which is trying to defend the lives of Palestinians. His opening question attempts the same thing by asking us to ignore all the death on the Palestinian side as inflicted by Israel - I found it interesting that you could flip that whole point around and it would apply to him. "How many Jewish lives will it take for your to accept that Israel are not to blame for this" is just as easily transformed into "How many Palestinian lives etc etc". I also don't think the number of people dying corresponds to the full value of useful information in a discussion around why this is happening, it's just intended to be emotive.

 

The problem I have with it is that if he successfully paints the left as antisemitic and therefore acting out of irrational hatred for Jewish people, then who is left to speak for the Palestinian people? If he had, at the same time, acknowledged Israel's contribution to why we are here, then I might have a different lens on this. But he won't do that because he is playing to the domestic audience as much as anyone else.

 

I googled him, he's the leader of a political party - useful to understand where people are coming from when looking at things like this.

 

 

[Middle East Crisis]

Just now, Dr Gloom said:

 

i think we can be arrogant when we compare our worldview with those of an islamist terrorist group tbh

 

Resistance to LGBTQ is certainly not limited to Islamic terror groups though. If we were talking about a bombing campaign through the bible belt of America, I'd like to think I'd still resist that despite the fact that their views on LGBTQ issues don't align with my own.

 

Again, I don't think the point is relevant. I can see what he's trying to do but I'm not buying it.

[Middle East Crisis]

21 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

Incidentally, Rayvin, I am left wing, my friends are all left wing. I’m a card-carrying member of the tofu-eating wokerati. 

 

But I do see a blind spot when it comes to antisemitism. I don’t think that necessarily makes most people on the left wantisemitic but it is a problem and it’s everywhere. I see it on social media. I hear it in conversations with friends - people whose opinions I respect - even people on this board. It’s why I keep banging on about it.
 

I think a lot of people on the left struggle with the idea of a Jewish state as much as they do with Israel’s actions. At least, that’s how it feels to me.

 

And the Israeli politician whose thread I posted earlier rightly points out that there is a certain irony when the left defends Hamas given it stands against many things the left campaign for. 

 

I can only speak for myself in this because I am in some discordance with the left on some issues generally anyway. If I had been in the room with Hamas leadership before the gave the order to do what they did, I would have been shouting and screaming at them not do it, to think of the innocent lives that would be harmed, that the people they would target would not deserve this, how this was not the way. I would have fucking begged them. I am sure most people would have - but no one had that chance and their hatred went unchallenged, leading us to absolute devastation.

 

Israel still has the option to not kill more people. This cannot be the way to make this better, it just can't. It's not even like Hamas leadership will even be there, they'll be in Iran. But from the current state of things as of right now, I hope that Israel find Hamas in the first tunnel they open so that this ends as quickly as possible and saves as many lives as possible. It won't happen but I hope it does. That's where I am on this.

 

As for the latter point about LGBTQ stuff and so on, I don't really find that relevant personally. Maybe some on the left might but we're talking about a different culture here and we should not be so arrogant as to assume that our ways of looking at the world take precedence over theirs.

[Middle East Crisis]

26 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

I don’t think everything Israel is doing is ok.

The blockade of Gaza - not ok

 

The continued illegal settlement expansion - not ok. The Israeli government argues it has no option but to keep it in place in order to contain the terrorist threat. And now containment is no longer an option. 

 

So what would you say to the notional left winger who pointed out to you that in this list of Israeli actions which are 'not ok', you've not included the executions and murders by the IDF or Israeli settlers (many in the West Bank), which would appear to be acts of terrorism themselves? They would likely state that the fact that they're not being talked about is precisely why the left needs to make itself heard - because they worry that if they do not, Israel will act unchecked as it largely has done for years. Hamas has given Israel a "justification" to achieve all sorts of nationalist strategic objectives here, and the priority has to be on trying to save the lives we still can, assuming all lives are equal.

 

So to repeat Dazzler's point, either you treat them all equally, in which case Israel has a lot of blood on its hands too, or you're either an antisemite or an islamophobe. I actually think that is a very fair line in the sand.

[Middle East Crisis]

2 minutes ago, Dazzler said:

 

But the reality is that if Israel stop occupying more and more of Gaza / West Bank and leave the Palestinians to fend for themselves it would have absolutely zero impact on Hamas' beliefs and decision making. Hamas exists to exterminate Jews, and create an Islamic state of Palestine. As long as Hamas is in power they will always be a very real threat to Israel.

 

The problem is when you have terrorists running one region and a bunch of nationalist nutcases running the other then you are always going to have conflict. The only way for peace to reign supreme is to remove both and have people in charge who actually believe in, and strive for peace. That's not the case here.

 

In reality it's the real Muslims in Gaza and the real Jewish in Israel who suffer equally. Neither want this conflict, and the people should be able to see the humanity in both groups of people and the evil in both sets of "rulers".

 

Anyone who believes Palestinian lives matter more than Israelis or vice-versa are driven by agenda IMO - you are either an anti-Semite or an Islamaphobe. 

 

I don't disagree about Hamas.

 

I think the fact that we are being asked to accept tens of thousands of Palestinian deaths here and that we did nothing about the tens of thousands before this, show that some lives do matter more to the mainstream consciousness. I agree with your final statement in full.

[Middle East Crisis]

To my eyes the left wing position (attempting to summarise charitably) is:

 

Israel is a terrorist state that routinely executes and oppresses Palestinians, having made them second class citizens in a legal sense, in their own country. Israel essentially strives to become an ethnostate and imposes apartheid to be able to deliver this. The Israeli government rations electricity, water, food, medical supplies to Gaza as a mechanism of control. It prevents people freely entering and leaving Gaza, essentially transforming the region into a prison for 2 million people. Israeli settlers frequently commit acts of terrorism against Palestinians, with many more of the latter having been killed through terrorism than the former. The IDF has a long history of murdering children both in Gaza and in the West Bank. Palestinian people are routinely and violently evicted from their homes as Israel seeks to effectively take over the land upon which the people of Gaza now live. Israel's ultimate objective is total ethnic cleansing of the region.

 

Hamas are terrorists who committed some unspeakable atrocities on October 7th, but that this didn't happen in a vacuum, and claims that this is motivated somehow by a dynamic entirely apart from everything laid out above are fanciful. That the above crimes by Israel could absolutely result in this sort of a response by militants in any other part of the world, and that the path to ending suffering for everyone concerned is for Israel to stop brutalising people. Israel discontinuing the oppression of Gaza would be a path towards safety and security for Israelis as well as Palestinians.

 

I don't think you have to hate Jewish people to believe the above.

[Middle East Crisis]

So I'm going to for a moment try to set out what I think the current position is here being taken by people who think what Israel is doing is ok - I will be as charitable as possible:

Prior to October 7th Israel was a subjecting Palestinians to sporadic displacement and occasional acts of violence were committed unlawfully as part of disputes and so on. Palestinians in Gaza were governed by Hamas who were responsible for ensuring basic utilities and functioning of the state. People in Gaza otherwise lived fairly normally. On October 7th, Hamas killed 1400 people in a terrorist act that was motivated only by irrational hatred of Jewish people and the desire to impose an Islamic caliphate, and Israel consequently had to 'invade' (unsure of the right word since Gaza technically belongs to Israel) Gaza in order to eliminate Hamas altogether. Over 5000 civilians have been killed in this process so far, including 2,300 children, but this is an unfortunate consequence of the pressing need for Israel to defend itself. Ultimately in Israel's position, the lives of Palestinians are worth less than the lives of their own people - this is simply how it is, and any other country would behave the same way.

 

Is this a fair characterisation of the non-left wing position?

[Middle East Crisis]

I would have to talk to them to know that. I think there's a worrying incursion of a set of right wing narratives into this to discredit the left and I'm not endorsing that until it becomes clear that we have left wingers hating Jews rather than hating Israel.

 

EDIT - actually I suspect given the videos that the left has little to do with this element and it's more an Arab world response. I think the question remains the same though, although the right wing narrative is arguably more insidious for this one.

[Middle East Crisis]

3 hours ago, Dr Gloom said:

People who feel compelled to do this really are beneath contempt 

 

 

 

The most charitable interpretation I can come up with on this is that these people are offended or upset that these hostages are being given more visibility than the thousands of Palestinians killed both before and after the Hamas atrocity. 

 

Or they think it's propaganda designed to justify more death?

 

I find it very sad that this is what it's come to, we're all human and none of these labels actually do matter in the end (IMO). I share your outrage at this.

[Middle East Crisis]

I agree with that but it's worth considering that this is more or less the position that the UN has just taken up with respect of Hamas, and Israel has just banned all UN delegates from entering the country as a result.

[Bitcoin]

Yeah my portfolio just shot up too. We'll see I guess but the timing is about right considering what lies ahead.

[Sandro Tonali]

So that's effective immediately right? Disappointing for him and us but hopefully he learns from it and repays the faith shown in him.

 

Am curious where the conspiracy mackems land on this one, is 10 months still proof of Saudi corruption?

[2023/24 - Generic NUFC Chat]

6 minutes ago, Monkeys Fist said:

Milburn- won three FA CUPS. 

 

McDonald- won fuck all

 

Terry Hibbitt - won fuck all

 

Kevin Keegan - won fuck all

 

Shearer - won fuck all

 

Sir Les - won fuck all

 

etc. 

 

 

Yeah but Keegan was somehow the spirit of the football club made man. Idk, I think there are exceptionable variables in all of this. Distinctions are important.

 

Maybe we could agree to establish a new tier like "club deity" if Trippier wins something with us.

[2023/24 - Generic NUFC Chat]

It's a tough one tbh. And I want to set out very clearly that I think he is absolutely world class and everything that everyone is saying about him being transformative for the club.

 

But that said I feel like there have to be levels. If he leads us to a league title or a cup win, surely that has to be a tier above where he is now? Those successes have to mean something.

[2023/24 - Generic NUFC Chat]

Just now, Monkeys Fist said:

Sir Les was only here 2 years…

 

You put him in the same category as Shearer, not me

 

I mean top of the top for this club. Half this team could justify club icon status at this point but I mean genuine club legend.

[2023/24 - Generic NUFC Chat]

Just now, Monkeys Fist said:

I don’t think him winning owt precludes him from having earned that status tbh. 
 

Let’s say he has to retire a season before we lift the Title. 
 

He will have played a massive part in getting there. 
 

He’s up there with Shearer, Sir Les, KK, Killer, Liam O, already for me. 

 

I love him but I don't think being here less than 2 years gets him that. If he left in January for instance I'm not sure he's quite Shearer level. I do think it's probably like he needs to retire here.

 

I really do think he's one of the best players we've ever had, just not sure yet about 'legend'.

[2023/24 - Generic NUFC Chat]

6 minutes ago, Holden McGroin said:

He is already in our best right back ever.

 

Totally agree. The only sad thing about Trippier is that we got him relatively late on in his career - maybe 2 or 3 years earlier and he'd have ended up a permanent club legend IMO.

 

Mind you if we actually win something he could still get there.

[Sandro Tonali]

Aye that is a weird one tbh. How is supporting a player with a gambling addiction and showing them they're still loved "a disgrace to people who seriously struggle with gambling addictions". Surely they should feel encouraged by this, as well as the potential knock on effect of thousands of people having a reason to find some compassion over the issue.

 

Seriously people are just twisting on for the absolute sake of it on this and yet again it has nothing to do with the issue in hand, and everything to do with being emotionally feeble and insecure about the rise of our club.