NJS

I had to switch SSN off when he was on screen - I despise the bastard.

But correct. Genetically we are still mainly "Celtic" - that doesn't mean Irish or anything like that - it refers to the people who populated the Islands after the last Ice Age and as you say haven't been diluted that much by invasion. The supposed Norse influence on the North East is significant in the North of Scotland and the Isles but less so in England. It's sort of funny how the BNP have had to "reluctantly" extend their definition of what is okay beyond Anglo-Saxon to include Celtic - considering the genetics make us predominally the latter.

Fucking shit music. (Decent vid)

The thing is one of the reasons Keegan was so admired (despite the ultimate failure) was that very emotional vulnerability you mention - his passion made the man - much like Robson. What I would say is that most people when they are honest with themselves recognise their own failings which leads me to think that knowing exactly what people were going to say about him it just strengthens my view that the shit must have been mightily bad for him to "bottle it" this time around. I realise there are arguments about his age and his financial status but I still think he wouldn't have gone without an immense amount of consideration.

Anyone planning to go to the game by train should note that National Express East Anglia drivers are on strike on the Saturday. Don't know if it affects anyone going via Peterborough but the Liverpool Street route wil be a hourly and crammed if you're extremely lucky. It's the last day of a 6 day strike (I just remembered as I've just checked with my boss that I can work from home all week) so it may be resolved in time but its still a potentially huge pisser.

Apart from the "pen", none of those 14 shots on target were anywhere near being a goal though.

I was thinking during the Leicester game how true the cliche about your mistakes being punished in the top flight is - I'm hoping the confidence brought by getting away with it and keeping clean sheets will actually reduce the mistakes - for example I think Collocini only made that one mistake at the end which is low for him. It could have cost us the points but didn't and that's what gives me hope.

I'm schizo on this one - if it had been a player doing it for us I'd have loved it as I can't stand Arsenal but if it was the other way around (I saw Keane do it at Forest against us a few years ago) then the player is asking for trouble - what would have happened if someone had got on and started on him? - the fan would have been locked up for years but that level of winding people up on a Friday night wouldn't be overlooked.

It's frustrating in a way - if we could have sorted out the sale or 2 or 3 of the good players hadn't left we could really have been confident about promotion. The size/quality of the squad still terrifies me but the kid is right on one thing - the other teams so far have proved toothless. That could change of course but if we last to January and can then get some players in I'm beginning to think we have a good chance.

I hope we start playing the teams that these other "contenders" must have played because that's another fucking shit team sent packing with only a half-decent but solid performance. Chopra tried too hard and he may be their best player but I had to laugh when he kept coming deep to get the ball as if he's a good player. I'm also a bit concerned about Barton being too laid back and going through the motions - did okay but I just feel he needs to find some other gears. Also in response to that Place review which said we got all the decisions because of our "name" I couldn't help thinking we got bookings today because of who was involved - and that Bothroyd should have a a yellow for being a whinging, cheating little shit.

Yeah that's my reaction too - pity he can't get the money off Ashley personally.

Two decent ones signed by Keegan, 4 bottleless shits signed by Wise/Vetere/Jiminez.

I would love it if the cunt was jailed...... SD/JJB Fraud enqury

I think "cool" was the wrong word - I meant that it was almost a given that you like The Beatles.

As I understand it, there were a number of "similar" bands about at the start of the 60s and The Beatles were just the best/most popular. Now it may be that that popularity was the driving force of a musical revolution but I think the existence of other bands suggests that their place was more as the vanguard for what was happening at a broad grassroots level rather than as the be all and end all. I think you also have to look at the cultural changes happening at the time which were integral in change in society which in someway demanded "revolutionary" music which I'd say had evolved from pure rock and roll. I'd also add that invoking the articles CT posted and also Fish's suggestion above there is a tendency to go with the flow and be "cool" in liking The Beatles which has an Emperors new clothes type context - it can sometimes be seen as heresy almost to say you don't like them.

I admit to being an argumentative git but the positions I do take on this and other things are all genuine. I would however confess that my position on The Beatles is "influenced" by my brother being a huge, huge fan of theirs. Something that at least means I can argue from a position of knowledge when it comes to their music as I have heard it all.

Pure music snobbery there NJS. I don't think its helpful or true to categorise people like that either. Probably but I'll bet if you asked people who bought 10 or less albums a year what they are I could give a pretty good guess as to what they would be. I'd also add that its evidenced by the number of people who "grow out" of music and have an overstated sense of nostalgia for what was popular when they were interested in it because they haven't bought anything since.

I have no issue acknowledging those points (though I'm unsure if the first one is proven) - being honest I don't really underestimate their influence either - as CT has said I just think their actual music is overrated.

As an admitted outsider to disco/dance/soul I lumped them together more from a group that was meant to be killed as was the case with prog rock as you say. Of course "good" music can be popular and "manufactured shite" can occasionally be enjoyable - I was just talking in general terms. Again admitting bias I think the ubiqutous "Beatles or Stones?" question I always saw as an establishment versus outsider thing which would make me lean towards the latter even though I don't really like either. I mention this as a possible explanation for my antipathy.

Its strange you say that, at 43 I am the youngest of 7 so there was all sorts of music being played and lying around the house from my older brothers and sisters but I cant really remember any Beatles stuff. You're not one of them then. Imo, to appreciate a musical revolution you have to have not heard any music that came after it or is a derivative style before listening to it. The only way to fulfil that criteria is either to have spent your life listening to music pre-1962 and then at the age of 17/18 listen to the Beatles for the first time. Impossible if you have a radio or TV. When my dad (a professional musician) talks about listening to The Beatles for the first time, he talks about the first moment he heard it and the difference to anything he had heard before. His love for them comes from this moment, one which you can not re-create for later generations. I was old enough to see punk supposedly revolutionalise music but it was all exaggerated despite the enthusiasm of the fans - punk was supposed to kill disco/dance music but the 70s ended ruled by garbage like the Bee Gees and Michael Jackson - just like now the charts are still dominated by populist shite. Music to me is always divided between stuff that "proper" music fans - people who take it seriously - like and stuff bought by and listened to by more casual listeners who are often influenced just by the notion of popularity. I've always considered The Beatles to be on the latter side of the divide.

Watch the footage of any of their gigs from 60-66 and you will see absolutely nothing else but screaming, tearful teenage girls - exactly like any "Take That" type band since. Maybe their later music would have given rise to gigs with more "serious" fans but we'll never know. But that was a first though wasn't it? Regardless of latter fanbase, for me their later stuff vindicates their talent, in particular John Lennon. Whose solo stuff was dross.

There were many band who started/came to prominence in the early 60s who could be said to have influenced what came later - I don't see any Beatles influence in metal/heavy rock for instance which if anything arose "in opposition" to the Beatles. They get the plaudits beacuse of the level of success/popularity which is probably fair enough and I recognise that a lot of stuff I like could be said to have been influenced by them but I think that influence is more diffuse than just "I grew up listening to The Beatles and The Beatles alone".

Watch the footage of any of their gigs from 60-66 and you will see absolutely nothing else but screaming, tearful teenage girls - exactly like any "Take That" type band since. Maybe their later music would have given rise to gigs with more "serious" fans but we'll never know.

You might not like them but to claim they are somehow overrated is ridiculous. I've read people defending the inclusion of "When I'm 64" on Sgt Peppers as me not recognising their profound sense of irony. They may have done a lot for the music business but I still think their music itself is vastly overrated.

There was a valid-ish argument about the training camps but the way they just thought change the regime and everything wil be okay was staggeringly stupid - I only have an 'O' level in history and knew that was bollocks so I find the level of imcomptence amazing.