Sven's deein' one

[Fop 1]

I had a look and they came 8th with less points about 3 or 4 seasons ago. They've got two away games left though so they probably won't get much higher. Can I just ask where you think he's been lucky in his career though as I honestly think it's a bit harsh to say the least. I don't really believe in luck in sport though, overall anyway.

 

I don't think he's lucky in the context that he is a feckless muppet that doesn't have a clue that somehow manages to fluke things in a sustained way.

 

I think he's lucky in that where things are tight (and he has no real influence over the situation) things tend to go his way, which is a great quality to have in a manager, just not necessarily a quality of a great manager.

For example? I can think of Lazio winning the league on the last day that time when Juve's match was virtually rained off. You can't be lucky all your career though, yet he's done a good job at every club he's been at. He did well as England manager too imo. Relatively-speaking he certainly did and I think you can only be judged against your peers if you're making fair comparisons.

 

I think he's a good manager, but not a great one (which again goes back the start of the season nonsense). Again someone with a different reputation doing the same things he did in the England job would have got all sorts of things said about them (probably rightfully), and again many times there he got the rub of the green to take pressure off when he needed it.

 

He's got a lot of qualities as a manager, but without his general luck, he'd never have been as successful, or as perceived as such.

No examples then?

 

Many of his England qualification campaigns and tournaments, take your pick.

[Fop 1]

Good generals are lucky generals as a general rule.

 

Luck >>>>>> anything so long as it stays with you.

[Park Life 71]

Good generals are lucky generals as a general rule.

 

Luck >>>>>> anything so long as it stays with you.

 

Aye. Try not to get caught in the senate without your lectors.

[Guest alex]

I had a look and they came 8th with less points about 3 or 4 seasons ago. They've got two away games left though so they probably won't get much higher. Can I just ask where you think he's been lucky in his career though as I honestly think it's a bit harsh to say the least. I don't really believe in luck in sport though, overall anyway.

 

I don't think he's lucky in the context that he is a feckless muppet that doesn't have a clue that somehow manages to fluke things in a sustained way.

 

I think he's lucky in that where things are tight (and he has no real influence over the situation) things tend to go his way, which is a great quality to have in a manager, just not necessarily a quality of a great manager.

For example? I can think of Lazio winning the league on the last day that time when Juve's match was virtually rained off. You can't be lucky all your career though, yet he's done a good job at every club he's been at. He did well as England manager too imo. Relatively-speaking he certainly did and I think you can only be judged against your peers if you're making fair comparisons.

 

I think he's a good manager, but not a great one (which again goes back the start of the season nonsense). Again someone with a different reputation doing the same things he did in the England job would have got all sorts of things said about them (probably rightfully), and again many times there he got the rub of the green to take pressure off when he needed it.

 

He's got a lot of qualities as a manager, but without his general luck, he'd never have been as successful, or as perceived as such.

No examples then?

 

Many of his England qualification campaigns and tournaments, take your pick.

He went out of the WC in Japan / Korea 2-1 to Brazil in the QF. He went out of the Euros in 2004 on penalties and he went out of the WC in 2006 in the QF again on penalties. Are those examples of things going his way when it's tight?

[Fop 1]

I had a look and they came 8th with less points about 3 or 4 seasons ago. They've got two away games left though so they probably won't get much higher. Can I just ask where you think he's been lucky in his career though as I honestly think it's a bit harsh to say the least. I don't really believe in luck in sport though, overall anyway.

 

I don't think he's lucky in the context that he is a feckless muppet that doesn't have a clue that somehow manages to fluke things in a sustained way.

 

I think he's lucky in that where things are tight (and he has no real influence over the situation) things tend to go his way, which is a great quality to have in a manager, just not necessarily a quality of a great manager.

For example? I can think of Lazio winning the league on the last day that time when Juve's match was virtually rained off. You can't be lucky all your career though, yet he's done a good job at every club he's been at. He did well as England manager too imo. Relatively-speaking he certainly did and I think you can only be judged against your peers if you're making fair comparisons.

 

I think he's a good manager, but not a great one (which again goes back the start of the season nonsense). Again someone with a different reputation doing the same things he did in the England job would have got all sorts of things said about them (probably rightfully), and again many times there he got the rub of the green to take pressure off when he needed it.

 

He's got a lot of qualities as a manager, but without his general luck, he'd never have been as successful, or as perceived as such.

No examples then?

 

Many of his England qualification campaigns and tournaments, take your pick.

He went out of the WC in Japan / Korea 2-1 to Brazil in the QF. He went out of the Euros in 2004 on penalties and he went out of the WC in 2006 in the QF again on penalties. Are those examples of things going his way when it's tight?

 

Luck (and a pretty strong squad) can only take you so far.

 

Decisions like not taking another proven striker rather than Theo Walcott is really riding your luck (and then not playing him because you don't think he's good enough, is like playing Russian roulette whilst juggling armed hand-grenades and hoping to live).

[Guest alex]

Are you siting his decision to take Walcott as an example of him being lucky? It was a stupid decision imo, given Owen and Rooney were struggling for fitness and the only other striker was Crouch (coupled with Walcott's total lack of experience of course). But it was hardly an example of Sven being lucky given the way things went (Owen's injury in particular).

[Guest alex]

'Citing' that is

[Fop 1]

Are you siting his decision to take Walcott as an example of him being lucky? It was a stupid decision imo, given Owen and Rooney were struggling for fitness and the only other striker was Crouch (coupled with Walcott's total lack of experience of course). But it was hardly an example of Sven being lucky given the way things went (Owen's injury in particular).

 

No, it's just one of the instances where his managerial judgement was questionable.

 

For England he basically played the obvious choices in the obvious roles (and when he deviated from that, it didn't go well - midfield diamond) and sat back and crossed his fingers (often quite literally).

 

It's been said by players that he's no great motivator, and I struggle to think of any strokes of tactical genius from him on the pitch as well.

 

He has his noticeable strengths, but he has a fair few weaknesses too IMO (admittedly many can be covered by a good captain and probably assistant and coaches - it's the same with many managers), and his rub of the green tends help him along.

 

 

 

 

Out of interest given the same squad and the same injuries do you think a manager like Sven or someone like Keegan would be doing better at Man City this season?

[NJS 4055]

I thnk its a bit of a rewrite to suit the press agenda that Allardyce was sacked because of the fans - I'd like to think it was down to Ashley (a decision I agreed with).

 

I do think there were some rumblings from some City fans but I assume most were happy(ish) - I hope whoever they get fails.

 

Also if we had hung on to Sam until the end of the season we could now have had Sven

Of course it was a history rewrite. It's funny with the recent Avram Grant thing too. When you initially had Chelsea 'fans' singing "you don't know what you're doing" the press didn't pick up on it (much). Now, they've decided to get their teeth into him it gets more publicity. Unfotunately though, despite the general consensus on here, I think most people lap up what they print.

 

You have a short memory. Coming homw from Wigan away on Boxing Day i dont think there was a single fan on my bus who didnt want FS sacked there and then. I honestly think we would have been relegated by now if FS had stayed and im more than happy for the press to claim the fans got him sacked. Its nothing less than he deserved!

 

I think there were a lot of fans who wanted him out - however that's different to him being driven out or Ashley "being left with no choice because of the fans" - as I said Ashley may have taken the fans into account but made the decision for his reasons.

[Guest alex]

Are you siting his decision to take Walcott as an example of him being lucky? It was a stupid decision imo, given Owen and Rooney were struggling for fitness and the only other striker was Crouch (coupled with Walcott's total lack of experience of course). But it was hardly an example of Sven being lucky given the way things went (Owen's injury in particular).

 

No, it's just one of the instances where his managerial judgement was questionable.

 

For England he basically played the obvious choices in the obvious roles (and when he deviated from that, it didn't go well - midfield diamond) and sat back and crossed his fingers (often quite literally).

 

It's been said by players that he's no great motivator, and I struggle to think of any strokes of tactical genius from him on the pitch as well.

 

He has his noticeable strengths, but he has a fair few weaknesses too IMO (admittedly many can be covered by a good captain and probably assistant and coaches - it's the same with many managers), and his rub of the green tends help him along.

 

 

 

 

Out of interest given the same squad and the same injuries do you think a manager like Sven or someone like Keegan would be doing better at Man City this season?

I think KK would probably have done about as well. KK's a class manager too in my eyes though although Eriksson has achieved a hell of a lot more and did better as England manager too. You're changing the point though. You were initially saying he was a lucky manager yet you haven't given one example yet. Surely you'd be able to come up with plenty of specific ones if that was the case. I'm not saying Sven's infallible. I never have.

[Guest alex]

I thnk its a bit of a rewrite to suit the press agenda that Allardyce was sacked because of the fans - I'd like to think it was down to Ashley (a decision I agreed with).

 

I do think there were some rumblings from some City fans but I assume most were happy(ish) - I hope whoever they get fails.

 

Also if we had hung on to Sam until the end of the season we could now have had Sven

Of course it was a history rewrite. It's funny with the recent Avram Grant thing too. When you initially had Chelsea 'fans' singing "you don't know what you're doing" the press didn't pick up on it (much). Now, they've decided to get their teeth into him it gets more publicity. Unfotunately though, despite the general consensus on here, I think most people lap up what they print.

 

You have a short memory. Coming homw from Wigan away on Boxing Day i dont think there was a single fan on my bus who didnt want FS sacked there and then. I honestly think we would have been relegated by now if FS had stayed and im more than happy for the press to claim the fans got him sacked. Its nothing less than he deserved!

 

I think there were a lot of fans who wanted him out - however that's different to him being driven out or Ashley "being left with no choice because of the fans" - as I said Ashley may have taken the fans into account but made the decision for his reasons.

Aye. He got himself sacked in that the owner got sick of him. There was never any real pressure from the fans on the regime to get him out though which is what 'the fans got him sacked' suggests.

[Fop 1]

Are you siting his decision to take Walcott as an example of him being lucky? It was a stupid decision imo, given Owen and Rooney were struggling for fitness and the only other striker was Crouch (coupled with Walcott's total lack of experience of course). But it was hardly an example of Sven being lucky given the way things went (Owen's injury in particular).

 

No, it's just one of the instances where his managerial judgement was questionable.

 

For England he basically played the obvious choices in the obvious roles (and when he deviated from that, it didn't go well - midfield diamond) and sat back and crossed his fingers (often quite literally).

 

It's been said by players that he's no great motivator, and I struggle to think of any strokes of tactical genius from him on the pitch as well.

 

He has his noticeable strengths, but he has a fair few weaknesses too IMO (admittedly many can be covered by a good captain and probably assistant and coaches - it's the same with many managers), and his rub of the green tends help him along.

 

 

 

 

Out of interest given the same squad and the same injuries do you think a manager like Sven or someone like Keegan would be doing better at Man City this season?

I think KK would probably have done about as well. KK's a class manager too in my eyes though although Eriksson has achieved a hell of a lot more and did better as England manager too. You're changing the point though. You were initially saying he was a lucky manager yet you haven't given one example yet. Surely you'd be able to come up with plenty of specific ones if that was the case. I'm not saying Sven's infallible. I never have.

 

And I'm not saying he'd be about to lose 0-4 and suddenly through a series of unlikely scenarios he'd win 5-4, but quite often he'd be sat (immobile and seemingly out of ideas) just to get the rub of the green.

 

Keegan at england I think had it the other way luck-wise, although I don't think he had the set up he needed to really prosper in that sort of job.

 

I think it is the same point though, much like Allardyce and how he is perceived really (actually it would be interesting to see how he'd do in different leagues with enough backing).

[Guest alex]

Are you siting his decision to take Walcott as an example of him being lucky? It was a stupid decision imo, given Owen and Rooney were struggling for fitness and the only other striker was Crouch (coupled with Walcott's total lack of experience of course). But it was hardly an example of Sven being lucky given the way things went (Owen's injury in particular).

 

No, it's just one of the instances where his managerial judgement was questionable.

 

For England he basically played the obvious choices in the obvious roles (and when he deviated from that, it didn't go well - midfield diamond) and sat back and crossed his fingers (often quite literally).

 

It's been said by players that he's no great motivator, and I struggle to think of any strokes of tactical genius from him on the pitch as well.

 

He has his noticeable strengths, but he has a fair few weaknesses too IMO (admittedly many can be covered by a good captain and probably assistant and coaches - it's the same with many managers), and his rub of the green tends help him along.

 

 

 

 

Out of interest given the same squad and the same injuries do you think a manager like Sven or someone like Keegan would be doing better at Man City this season?

I think KK would probably have done about as well. KK's a class manager too in my eyes though although Eriksson has achieved a hell of a lot more and did better as England manager too. You're changing the point though. You were initially saying he was a lucky manager yet you haven't given one example yet. Surely you'd be able to come up with plenty of specific ones if that was the case. I'm not saying Sven's infallible. I never have.

 

And I'm not saying he'd be about to lose 0-4 and suddenly through a series of unlikely scenarios he'd win 5-4, but quite often he'd be sat (immobile and seemingly out of ideas) just to get the rub of the green.

 

Like when then? In any case I'd just say you've fallen for the media perception of him 'just sitting there' because of his calm demeanour. I'm sure there's the odd example of him getting the rub of the green, like Beckham's free-kick against Greece. However, there's no way that qualification campaign could be classed as him being lucky though imo. If you look at specific instances then you can always make a case for managers being lucky. In reality though it balances itself out and Sven's record, quite simply, speaks for itself in terms of achievements and trophies.

[Park Life 71]

He's not 'out of ideas' he's an ice cold nordic calculator.

[luckyluke 2]

Are you siting his decision to take Walcott as an example of him being lucky? It was a stupid decision imo, given Owen and Rooney were struggling for fitness and the only other striker was Crouch (coupled with Walcott's total lack of experience of course). But it was hardly an example of Sven being lucky given the way things went (Owen's injury in particular).

 

No, it's just one of the instances where his managerial judgement was questionable.

 

For England he basically played the obvious choices in the obvious roles (and when he deviated from that, it didn't go well - midfield diamond) and sat back and crossed his fingers (often quite literally).

 

It's been said by players that he's no great motivator, and I struggle to think of any strokes of tactical genius from him on the pitch as well.

 

He has his noticeable strengths, but he has a fair few weaknesses too IMO (admittedly many can be covered by a good captain and probably assistant and coaches - it's the same with many managers), and his rub of the green tends help him along.

 

 

 

 

Out of interest given the same squad and the same injuries do you think a manager like Sven or someone like Keegan would be doing better at Man City this season?

I think KK would probably have done about as well. KK's a class manager too in my eyes though although Eriksson has achieved a hell of a lot more and did better as England manager too. You're changing the point though. You were initially saying he was a lucky manager yet you haven't given one example yet. Surely you'd be able to come up with plenty of specific ones if that was the case. I'm not saying Sven's infallible. I never have.

 

And I'm not saying he'd be about to lose 0-4 and suddenly through a series of unlikely scenarios he'd win 5-4, but quite often he'd be sat (immobile and seemingly out of ideas) just to get the rub of the green.

 

Like when then? In any case I'd just say you've fallen for the media perception of him 'just sitting there' because of his calm demeanour. I'm sure there's the odd example of him getting the rub of the green, like Beckham's free-kick against Greece. However, there's no way that qualification campaign could be classed as him being lucky though imo. If you look at specific instances then you can always make a case for managers being lucky. In reality though it balances itself out and Sven's record, quite simply, speaks for itself in terms of achievements and trophies.

 

 

As I said, which Fop has probably ignored as it doesn't fit his arguement, Sven's luck with major injuries to key players at tournements was appalling.

[Fop 1]

Are you siting his decision to take Walcott as an example of him being lucky? It was a stupid decision imo, given Owen and Rooney were struggling for fitness and the only other striker was Crouch (coupled with Walcott's total lack of experience of course). But it was hardly an example of Sven being lucky given the way things went (Owen's injury in particular).

 

No, it's just one of the instances where his managerial judgement was questionable.

 

For England he basically played the obvious choices in the obvious roles (and when he deviated from that, it didn't go well - midfield diamond) and sat back and crossed his fingers (often quite literally).

 

It's been said by players that he's no great motivator, and I struggle to think of any strokes of tactical genius from him on the pitch as well.

 

He has his noticeable strengths, but he has a fair few weaknesses too IMO (admittedly many can be covered by a good captain and probably assistant and coaches - it's the same with many managers), and his rub of the green tends help him along.

 

 

 

 

Out of interest given the same squad and the same injuries do you think a manager like Sven or someone like Keegan would be doing better at Man City this season?

I think KK would probably have done about as well. KK's a class manager too in my eyes though although Eriksson has achieved a hell of a lot more and did better as England manager too. You're changing the point though. You were initially saying he was a lucky manager yet you haven't given one example yet. Surely you'd be able to come up with plenty of specific ones if that was the case. I'm not saying Sven's infallible. I never have.

 

And I'm not saying he'd be about to lose 0-4 and suddenly through a series of unlikely scenarios he'd win 5-4, but quite often he'd be sat (immobile and seemingly out of ideas) just to get the rub of the green.

 

Like when then? In any case I'd just say you've fallen for the media perception of him 'just sitting there' because of his calm demeanour. I'm sure there's the odd example of him getting the rub of the green, like Beckham's free-kick against Greece. However, there's no way that qualification campaign could be classed as him being lucky though imo. If you look at specific instances then you can always make a case for managers being lucky. In reality though it balances itself out and Sven's record, quite simply, speaks for itself in terms of achievements and trophies.

 

And others just sitting there would be slated in the same or similar circumstances (as he might be without the rub of the green).

 

Although again given the feverish speculation about where Man City would finish this season, I seem to have a better understanding than most.

 

It'll be interesting to see where he goes next and how he does.

[Guest alex]

Still no examples of this 'luck' I note.

[Fop 1]

He's not 'out of ideas' he's an ice cold nordic calculator.

 

I actually think he's psionically manipulating the ball.

[Fop 1]

Still no examples of this 'luck' I note.

 

Like a said there's plenty of little rubs of the green (you even give one yourself).

[Guest alex]

Still no examples of this 'luck' I note.

 

Like a said there's plenty of little rubs of the green (you even give one yourself).

Yes, I've also given examples of him being unlucky too, for balance. If there are plenty, give some more then.

[Fop 1]

As I said, which Fop has probably ignored as it doesn't fit his arguement, Sven's luck with major injuries to key players at tournements was appalling.

I see the tabloids have you firmly in their grasp. "Rooney scores a goal - with Rooney we will win the XXXX" to "Rooney doubtful - no chance of winning anything at all ever".

 

Sven's seeming inability to formulate a team not including the patently obvious choices was pretty appalling, especially compared to what other England managers have had to do in similar situations.

[Guest alex]

As I said, which Fop has probably ignored as it doesn't fit his arguement, Sven's luck with major injuries to key players at tournements was appalling.

I see the tabloids have you firmly in their grasp. "Rooney scores a goal - with Rooney we will win the XXXX" to "Rooney doubtful - no chance of winning anything at all ever".

 

Sven's seeming inability to formulate a team not including the patently obvious choices was pretty appalling, especially compared to what other England managers have had to do in similar situations.

How come his record compares so favourably with other England managers then?

[Fop 1]

Still no examples of this 'luck' I note.

 

Like a said there's plenty of little rubs of the green (you even give one yourself).

Yes, I've also given examples of him being unlucky too, for balance. If there are plenty, give some more then.

I know when you try to drag the issue down into tit for tat pedantism I've won the argument.

 

 

Rubs of the green where he's won a match he might have lost or drawn (and that being a bad result) are plentiful enough, however rubs of the green (for other managers) where he's unjustly lost are not.

 

Even accounting for the curse of england penalties.

[Park Life 71]

Was the Beckham free kick against Greece under Svennis?

[Fop 1]

As I said, which Fop has probably ignored as it doesn't fit his arguement, Sven's luck with major injuries to key players at tournements was appalling.

I see the tabloids have you firmly in their grasp. "Rooney scores a goal - with Rooney we will win the XXXX" to "Rooney doubtful - no chance of winning anything at all ever".

 

Sven's seeming inability to formulate a team not including the patently obvious choices was pretty appalling, especially compared to what other England managers have had to do in similar situations.

How come his record compares so favourably with other England managers then?

 

I'd say because he's had the strongest overall England squad of any modern England manager, before or I think since.

 

Although also probably because he didn't get himself sack for his indiscretions.