Is no-one else considering Keegan might be to blame?

[Happy Face 29]

Supporting Wise over Keegan is a misjudgement of phenomenal proportions. Sacking of the little scumbag would likely have solved the problem. It's even more stupid as it seems inevitable anyway considering the increased public hatred.

 

Support the club, not an individual.

[Park Life 71]

I'm sure Wise's original job was supposed to be to bring in players for the future, youth team, etc. I suspect he's grabbed more power over overall transfers as soon as Mort was out the door and that's part of it. Even if he hasn't and was always supposed to be out getting first team players surely it'd be to work with Keegan's list, I think promises were made on players coming in and Wise has ignored them - if Keegan and Wise didn't get on with each other then that'd just make matters even worse.

 

At the end of the day Ashley's the one who's put this structure in place, if it wasn't working then he should have fixed it and keeping hold of his best asset - Keegan.

 

 

It might have helped consulting with Keegan before hiring such a person....Oh well..

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3350]

In my humble opinion (its echoed by a lot of you guys) the facts to me look like:

1). Keegan was brought in as a figurehead, on the whim of Ashley listening to supporters.

2). Keegan has advised Ashley and wises team on what he wants, clearly Ashley’s plan was for us to invest in the medium to long term and keegans as per usual was short term to push us up the table as quickly as possible.

3) we got 6 very highly rated youngsters in during the summer, in 3-5 years some will be in the first team (as far as wise and Ashley are concerned). We also got Guthrie (who looks promising) and jonas and colo who both look an improvement on their outgoing counterparts (milner and any of the other centre backs).... as for the 2 transfer window players i know nothing about them except xisco thinks he’s steve foster!

4) the lack of communication was probably down to both Keegan and Wise, clearly Wise and keegan have never got on, and as such the only people to suffer because of their petulance is us the fans

 

 

Since leaving us in 97 Keegans record in the transfer market has actually been pretty shit.

 

 

As much as we loved him was signing Asprilla the best thing for the club?

[ewerk 27284]

It might have helped consulting with Keegan before hiring such a person....Oh well..

 

That's yet another unbelievable move for me, to appoint the person who the manager is supposed to be working the most closely with without their approval or even consultation is staggering, especially when that man is Denis Wise.

 

I did think it at the time but chose to ignore out in the belief that everything would work out ok.

[Holden McGroin 5180]

If anyone decides to fucking speak up then we might have a better idea.

 

The lack of communication is scary.

I'm not sure there's anything the club could say to change things

 

 

They could at least try

[Fop 1]

Keegan was only commited to the club for two and a half more years. Should the entire structure of the club, agreed by him, have been torn down to suit his short term demands, given that it was a structure he'd agreed to and worked within happily so far.

 

 

Er...... 3 years is actually quite a LONG TERM commitment to us (where have you been the last 12 years? ).

 

 

Plus I still think if things had been progressing at the end of 2-3 years Keegan would have signed for longer. Retirement at 60 might seem nice, but I expect he could have been convinced (if he even needed to be) otherwise.

[Big TRon 0]

The only thing I would blame Keegan for is not wanting the job enough. Yes he had reason to be pissed. Yes I can understand his principles. But there was some good work being done in targeting young emerging talent, and I don't think Keegan took that on board fully.

 

It was a dream job, with great fans, and some bloody decent players with everything to play for this season. It obviously didn't matter enough.

[tinofbeans 91]

it points to ashley. he's had a history of going in all guns blazing into places that were shambolically run or out of focus and straightening them out.my guess is wise and his cohorts are his yes men. keegan was always too independantly minded to be of benefit to ashley.

 

just my 0.02$

[Fop 1]

The only thing I would blame Keegan for is not wanting the job enough. Yes he had reason to be pissed. Yes I can understand his principles. But there was some good work being done in targeting young emerging talent, and I don't think Keegan took that on board fully.

 

It was a dream job, with great fans, and some bloody decent players with everything to play for this season. It obviously didn't matter enough.

 

If Keegan was targeting progressing this year it does (and he would be held SOLELY to blame, remember).

 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't getting mixed messages too, that is "top 4" from Ashley but then being undermined from even any long shot at that by Wise and Co.

 

No win situation for him if that were the case - and it certainly would fit the comments and circumstance.

[Big TRon 0]

The only thing I would blame Keegan for is not wanting the job enough. Yes he had reason to be pissed. Yes I can understand his principles. But there was some good work being done in targeting young emerging talent, and I don't think Keegan took that on board fully.

 

It was a dream job, with great fans, and some bloody decent players with everything to play for this season. It obviously didn't matter enough.

 

If Keegan was targeting progressing this year it does (and he would be held SOLELY to blame, remember).

 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't getting mixed messages too, that is "top 4" from Ashley but then being undermined from even any long shot at that by Wise and Co.

 

No win situation for him if that were the case - and it certainly would fit the comments and circumstance.

 

I don't think anybody would have hung out Keegan to dry if he didn't finish top 4 this season, bearing in mind the club re-iterated it was a long term vision just this week. I would like to have seen Keegan working with the new signings, they might turn out better than he expects.

[Fop 1]

The only thing I would blame Keegan for is not wanting the job enough. Yes he had reason to be pissed. Yes I can understand his principles. But there was some good work being done in targeting young emerging talent, and I don't think Keegan took that on board fully.

 

It was a dream job, with great fans, and some bloody decent players with everything to play for this season. It obviously didn't matter enough.

 

If Keegan was targeting progressing this year it does (and he would be held SOLELY to blame, remember).

 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't getting mixed messages too, that is "top 4" from Ashley but then being undermined from even any long shot at that by Wise and Co.

 

No win situation for him if that were the case - and it certainly would fit the comments and circumstance.

 

I don't think anybody would have hung out Keegan to dry if he didn't finish top 4 this season, bearing in mind the club re-iterated it was a long term vision just this week. I would like to have seen Keegan working with the new signings, they might turn out better than he expects.

 

Well after the reaction he got after his comments re: the Chelsea match, it's clear Ashley as bigger ambitions than many would assume.

 

Having said that I'm not saying he would be if he didn't this year.

 

But I am saying he'd be held to blame for not progressing towards it, but if he felt the major reason behind that was not being able to buy the players he wanted and having players he want sold from under him then why would he want to stay and do that impossible job?

[Meenzer 14243]

Right now I'm buying the theory that Keegan was brought in purely to get the fans on board and that AshleyCo. didn't realise what they were getting themselves into by employing arguably (?) the most important man in the club's recent history. Keegan might have expected more than mere "progress" within the first twelve months, regardless of the fundamentally conservative financial statements to that extent, but I don't think that makes his response to the situation any less understandable. He might not be a Geordie through-and-through in Stevie's Aryan-esque definition of the term, but his brain definitely functions like that of the average, rational, normal St. James'-going male, and that's what makes AshleyCo.'s misreading of the situation all the more galling.

 

Gah. I don't know where I stand any more. I just figure that if you're going to blame Keegan, you might as well blame each and every one of us for buying into the Keegan Returns persona in the first place. We (and he) probably knew it was destined to end in tears one way or another, but that it was worth the journey all the same. The fact that it's ended an awful lot earlier than any of us hoped it would is just another lesson that we all should learn from - and probably won't.

[ewerk 27284]

The only thing I would blame Keegan for is not wanting the job enough. Yes he had reason to be pissed. Yes I can understand his principles. But there was some good work being done in targeting young emerging talent, and I don't think Keegan took that on board fully.

 

It was a dream job, with great fans, and some bloody decent players with everything to play for this season. It obviously didn't matter enough.

 

If he was being undermined behind the scenes then he had no option but to go imo. Yes what was on the pitch mightn't have been too bad but to take orders off the pitch from that cockney short-arse would be too much for any self-respecting man.

[Guest alex]

Keegan can't win though. On one side he's a quitter who should have rode this out if he wanted the job enough. On the other side he would have been a 'yes' man happy to sit and take his wages for 3 years despite events going against his principles.

[Big TRon 0]

The only thing I would blame Keegan for is not wanting the job enough. Yes he had reason to be pissed. Yes I can understand his principles. But there was some good work being done in targeting young emerging talent, and I don't think Keegan took that on board fully.

 

It was a dream job, with great fans, and some bloody decent players with everything to play for this season. It obviously didn't matter enough.

 

If Keegan was targeting progressing this year it does (and he would be held SOLELY to blame, remember).

 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't getting mixed messages too, that is "top 4" from Ashley but then being undermined from even any long shot at that by Wise and Co.

 

No win situation for him if that were the case - and it certainly would fit the comments and circumstance.

 

I don't think anybody would have hung out Keegan to dry if he didn't finish top 4 this season, bearing in mind the club re-iterated it was a long term vision just this week. I would like to have seen Keegan working with the new signings, they might turn out better than he expects.

 

Well after the reaction he got after his comments re: the Chelsea match, it's clear Ashley as bigger ambitions than many would assume.

 

Having said that I'm not saying he would be if he didn't this year.

 

But I am saying he'd be held to blame for not progressing towards it, but if he felt the major reason behind that was not being able to buy the players he wanted and having players he want sold from under him then why would he want to stay and do that impossible job?

It's not like the new signings have been bad so far, why not give them a chance?

[Big TRon 0]

Keegan can't win though. On one side he's a quitter who should have rode this out if he wanted the job enough. On the other side he would have been a 'yes' man happy to sit and take his wages for 3 years despite events going against his principles.

 

But no one was calling him a yes man till now were they? He was doing well with what he had at his disposal, all the bullshit about him being tactically naieve was blown out of the water - he'd re-invented himself as a coach. That's why it disappoints me that he quit over not having more control on transfers, because that job wasn't being done disastrously, although you could question whether enough money was spent.

[Park Life 71]

Right now I'm buying the theory that Keegan was brought in purely to get the fans on board and that AshleyCo. didn't realise what they were getting themselves into by employing arguably (?) the most important man in the club's recent history. Keegan might have expected more than mere "progress" within the first twelve months, regardless of the fundamentally conservative financial statements to that extent, but I don't think that makes his response to the situation any less understandable. He might not be a Geordie through-and-through in Stevie's Aryan-esque definition of the term, but his brain definitely functions like that of the average, rational, normal St. James'-going male, and that's what makes AshleyCo.'s misreading of the situation all the more galling.

 

Gah. I don't know where I stand any more. I just figure that if you're going to blame Keegan, you might as well blame each and every one of us for buying into the Keegan Returns persona in the first place. We (and he) probably knew it was destined to end in tears one way or another, but that it was worth the journey all the same. The fact that it's ended an awful lot earlier than any of us hoped it would is just another lesson that we all should learn from - and probably won't.

 

That has to be the first mental position before considering this farce.

[Guest alex]

Keegan can't win though. On one side he's a quitter who should have rode this out if he wanted the job enough. On the other side he would have been a 'yes' man happy to sit and take his wages for 3 years despite events going against his principles.

 

But no one was calling him a yes man till now were they? He was doing well with what he had at his disposal, all the bullshit about him being tactically naieve was blown out of the water - he'd re-invented himself as a coach. That's why it disappoints me that he quit over not having more control on transfers, because that job wasn't being done disastrously, although you could question whether enough money was spent.

I think it would have become increasingly obvious he was a yes man though. People were already questioning how much control he had over who went / who came in.

[spongebob toonpants 3685]

Situation Feb does not equal sitaution now imo

 

I cant find any fault with Keegan, he has been completely undermined and marginalised.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/t...ted/7223479.stm

 

Wise explains role at Newcastle

 

Keegan wants to make it clear he is the boss of Wise

Newcastle executive director Dennis Wise has insisted that manager Kevin Keegan has the "final word" on all football matters at the club.

Wise left his role as Leeds boss earlier this week to take up his position with the Premier League club.

 

"I'm here to help Kevin, bringing young players through and also recommend certain players to him," said Wise.

 

"He'll say yes and no, he has the final word, no-one else. Everything that happens will be run past him."

 

 

 

 

Wise, who has previously managed Millwall and Swindon, added: "I'm not going to bring players in behind his back - I'm not into that.

 

"A lot of people have got mixed up with the reason why I am here. I'm not here to be involved in the first team, I'm not here to manage.

 

"I have to concentrate more on the academy, we need some young blood coming through of our own. We need to look abroad for players and that's my intention over the next few years."

 

 

 

Keegan has insisted that the appointment of Wise was made with his blessing and that he believes the new structure will be successful.

 

He said: "I am all for the changes and I approve of them. They want someone on the board who understands football, and Dennis understands football very well.

 

"It will work very well. Dennis reports to me - the chain is established.

 

"The club has become slightly fragmented. From my point of view, it's a positive thing - provided I get all the help I need.

 

I know Dennis. I know he's intelligent. I know his job here is to help me. He's on my side

 

Kevin Keegan

 

"I know what Dennis is going to do, and the idea in principle is good - to look for new players, to bring youngsters through and do things which our academy isn't doing so much at the moment."

 

Keegan also revealed he was involved in the appointment after speaking to owner Mike Ashley before he returned as manager.

 

"I knew about it. It's not a surprise to me, it might be to other people," Keegan told BBC Radio 5 live.

 

"Two or three names were given to me when I first sat down and talked about the job with the owner. One of them was Dennis.

 

"I know Dennis. I know he's intelligent. I know his job here is to help me. He's on my side.

 

"How can any manager be against someone who is going to come to the club to try to bring in talent?

 

"It's right for this football club. A lot of people outside might be shocked about it. I think in the long term it's the right decision. It's something that needs to be done."

[Fop 1]

It's not like the new signings have been bad so far, why not give them a chance?

 

Because he'd be doing exactly what I said, then potentially have to walk away or be sacked when he didn't do very well (which would hardly have been his fault).

 

And we're paper thin, two of our signings look good, 2 seem ok, 2 fuck knows, but we're STILL massively short of players (and injury run like Roeder's and we might not be able to field a YOUTH TEAM).

 

 

 

Keegan was trying to build a team, Wise and Co are playing businessiball IMO.

[Big TRon 0]

Keegan can't win though. On one side he's a quitter who should have rode this out if he wanted the job enough. On the other side he would have been a 'yes' man happy to sit and take his wages for 3 years despite events going against his principles.

 

But no one was calling him a yes man till now were they? He was doing well with what he had at his disposal, all the bullshit about him being tactically naieve was blown out of the water - he'd re-invented himself as a coach. That's why it disappoints me that he quit over not having more control on transfers, because that job wasn't being done disastrously, although you could question whether enough money was spent.

I think it would have become increasingly obvious he was a yes man though. People were already questioning how much control he had over who went / who came in.

 

If Keegan's transfer targets weren't in line with the policy of buying young emerging talent then there was always going to be a problem. Ashley hired the wrong man for the job in that case which is his mistake, although I agree with the policy broadly.

[Happy Face 29]

I blame the the pressure of a closing transfer window.

 

What's even the thinking behind the window?

 

Surely it contravenes some freedom of movement in the EU law because I can change companies any day of the year.

[Fop 1]

Keegan can't win though. On one side he's a quitter who should have rode this out if he wanted the job enough. On the other side he would have been a 'yes' man happy to sit and take his wages for 3 years despite events going against his principles.

 

But no one was calling him a yes man till now were they? He was doing well with what he had at his disposal, all the bullshit about him being tactically naieve was blown out of the water - he'd re-invented himself as a coach. That's why it disappoints me that he quit over not having more control on transfers, because that job wasn't being done disastrously, although you could question whether enough money was spent.

I think it would have become increasingly obvious he was a yes man though. People were already questioning how much control he had over who went / who came in.

 

If Keegan's transfer targets weren't in line with the policy of buying young emerging talent then there was always going to be a problem. Ashley hired the wrong man for the job in that case which is his mistake, although I agree with the policy broadly.

 

His targets seemed to be making sure we had a squad. You can buy all the young talent you want, if you're relegated because you don't have a functional 1st team and squad it doesn't matter.

 

But like I said I suspect he was getting it from both ends, aiming at Top 4 and on the cheap - It'll never happen as Keegan I'm sure knows.

Edited September 5, 2008 by Fop

[ewerk 27284]

I blame the the pressure of a closing transfer window.

 

What's even the thinking behind the window?

 

Surely it contravenes some freedom of movement in the EU law because I can change companies any day of the year.

 

Actually I think it was pressure from the EU that led to the transfer window, though I think it was only supposed to apply to international transfers. I'm not 100% sure of the details.

[ChezGiven 0]

Keegan can't win though. On one side he's a quitter who should have rode this out if he wanted the job enough. On the other side he would have been a 'yes' man happy to sit and take his wages for 3 years despite events going against his principles.

 

But no one was calling him a yes man till now were they? He was doing well with what he had at his disposal, all the bullshit about him being tactically naieve was blown out of the water - he'd re-invented himself as a coach. That's why it disappoints me that he quit over not having more control on transfers, because that job wasn't being done disastrously, although you could question whether enough money was spent.

I think it would have become increasingly obvious he was a yes man though. People were already questioning how much control he had over who went / who came in.

 

If Keegan's transfer targets weren't in line with the policy of buying young emerging talent then there was always going to be a problem. Ashley hired the wrong man for the job in that case which is his mistake, although I agree with the policy broadly.

 

He blocked Smith's move to everton on deadline day too.

 

Anyway, i cant be arsed with all this blamestorming, all over both the forums i use there are people calling Ashley a fat cunt and he should leave. 90% of them were calling Shepherd a fat cunt and saying he should leave about 18 months ago.

 

When things dont go exactly the way the fans want them too, there will always be a fat cunt that should leave immediately.

 

Telling.