Racism in football

[Happy Face 29]

You've only ever heard one racist remark at Newcastle? Seriously? I wouldn't say it was a bad place for racism at all and I don't think Shola gets stick for being black (well, for a small minority there may be a racial element). I would however say that down the years I've heard a few racist remark at the Toon. Someone behind me called Bernard a black c*nt once and you used to hear players getting abused for their colour quite a lot in the 80's.

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He sits in the posh seats man, they just say it quietly under their breath "Good lord, isn't the little black fellow terribly vaginal!"

[Howaythetoon 0]

You've only ever heard one racist remark at Newcastle? Seriously? I wouldn't say it was a bad place for racism at all and I don't think Shola gets stick for being black (well, for a small minority there may be a racial element). I would however say that down the years I've heard a few racist remark at the Toon. Someone behind me called Bernard a black c*nt once and you used to hear players getting abused for their colour quite a lot in the 80's.

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Yep just the once, mind I'm in the Milburn L7 where they are all posh.

 

A few away from home like but in my experience I can honestly say we do not have a problem of any kind whatsoever and that's not me being pro fellow fans because in my eyes half of them that follow the lads are arseholes, pissy moaning whinging twats.

 

And as a City, well having lived in "mixed" areas I'd say we don't have a real probklem with racism in that department either.

 

Lets face facts, they will never ever stamp it out, you can't force people to be nice to other people, people will say whatever they want, whether it's racist, or abuse of someones weight, hair color or looks. It's a sad fact of life.

 

By making a big issue of it though you give these tossers some kind of significance and power because they want people to be aware of others' skin color.

 

I was once at the match with the bairn (nephew) and instead of saying black man or black player he said "the player with the funny hair". That player was Bernard. Now there is nothing wrong with saying black player but I was well pleased that my nephew didn't look at someone as a skin color.

[Guest alex]

I wasn't trying to be pedantic btw although I can see it might look like that. I can remember Howard Gayle being subjected to monkey noises off Toon fans at the first match I ever went to. And he was playing for the Toon.

[Guest alex]

So you're a Johnny-come-lately then HTT?

 

[Happy Face 29]

Yep just the once, mind I'm in the Milburn L7 where they are all posh.

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See, I knew it.

 

If I'm looking at two people one of which is black and I want to point him out to someone, I'll say "the black one". That's not racist, that's descriptive. The idea of being 'colour blind' is quite distasteful I think. It has a negative connotation. As if to say "I don't mind that your black" Well why would you? Is it a bad thing to be black?

 

The prejudice has to be removed from the victim and placed on the racist.

[Howaythetoon 0]

I wasn't trying to be pedantic btw although I can see it might look like that. I can remember Howard Gayle being subjected to monkey noises off Toon fans at the first match I ever went to. And he was playing for the Toon.

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Oh I knew what you meant Alex, I mean just the once is hard to believe, especially given Bez's slant on things... I'm sure it goes on but I've only heard it the once. I was with the bairn as well and that pissed me off more than anything.

 

Hate hearing stuff like that because there is no need for it.

 

Yet where I grew up and when I was growing up I called corner shops darkie shops or Asians darkies and stuff like that and once called a black lass at school a "black bitch" and get a ticking off for it. I was about 9 or 10 at the time and there was never any mention of racism about my remarks, just that it was nasty so I never thought anything of it. I didn't even know there was a word that existed called racism.

 

It wasn't until I got older and berfiended a few "darkies" as I used to call them that I learned not to look at people as a skin color.

 

It's sad really and really stupid, the kind of stupidness of poking yourself in the eye to see if it hurts. Why?

 

Anyway...

[Howaythetoon 0]

So you're a Johnny-come-lately then HTT?

 

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I'm a modern day Keeganite me.

[bez 0]

Andy Cole, Sir Les, Bernard, Solano, Asprilla - what do they all have in common? Massive heroes on Tyneside.

 

Butt

Viana

O'Brien

Barton

Peacock (Darren)

Hooper

Marcelino

Robert

 

What do they all have in common? Abused by Toon fans at one time or another.

 

This whole "is it because they are black" crap is pathetic. If they (the critics) don't like you, they don't like you. Regardless of color, creed, cost, background or nationality.

 

I have only ever heard one racist remark at St. James' Park - directed at Uriah Rennie. Someone called him a black bastard and myself and others quickly told this cretin what we though about him and he shut up like the coward he is. That was at the Barca friendly a few years back.

 

Newcastle fans are the most tolerable fans of any, we have been praised many a time not just by fellow (rival) fans but by the likes of Henry, kick it out and show racism the red card.

 

We love our football and couldn't give a damn about anything else and if we don't like someone, well we can be right twats but never racist.

 

Of course there will be racists at SJP and in the ranks but then I could say that of every walk of life so it's not as if we are unuique here, we aren't. By making such pathetic assumptions you undermine and patronise the efforts of others and indeed fellow fans who have done a lot to stamp it out. To such an extent I have only heard one racist comment at SJP in over 10 years of going. That's a miracle given how half the fans are racist and out to abuse all the black players...

 

Talent is what brings adulation or scorn.

 

For every Faye there is a white Faye and a Sir Les so it's a nothing argument and one I take serious offence at because it just dilutes the message and makes the issue seem more significant than what it is while the real culprits, the racists can hide.

 

Don't tar people with a brush or pre-judge, that's as bad as racism in my book.

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Rich coming from you tbh

I think you need to read the thread more....

Yesterday was KROF day.

 

The message is simple...dont tolerate racism. One strike...OUT.

 

However, it works on different levels.

 

WE have always had Bigger problems with racism than most in our history. Howard Gayle wasnt met with glee. Put it that way. Other teams had serious bother here. I've mentioned Alex Williams as its the biggest and easist reminder of our illustrious past.

 

I cant imagine anyone not having heard racism at SJP. On various levels its alive and well.

 

Black people HAVE to work harder for recognition than white people in our society. Their errors are tolerated less. WE know that from various academic surveys. Factual evidence exists.

 

Put NUFC into this and we see that black players have to work harder for recognition and are given less leeway.

 

Some of the comments from people on various boards are ludicrous. Of course it isnt all. However, there are certainly those on other boards who happily support the NF and have been known to post pics supporting it. Plenty of them in fact. Whilst we have those people it doesnt take the wit of Soloman to see where some of the pointless diatribes come from. Acceptable?

 

Its there. If you prefer not to see it. That is your problem.

 

It isnt as bad or as big as it was. However, it exists. We know the KROF campaign is there for a reason.

 

There are various people who condone racism when they shouldnt. That is SICK.

 

Plenty of examples at SJP. Plenty of comments that are skipped over are actually racist. Plenty of example that can be used to attempt to illustrate that we love black players. Cole (did you hear some of the comments when he returned?) Ferdinand etc. Valid? As valid as the point that indicates that we havent managed to stamp out the problem.

 

There is plenty to debate on this issue without that ludicrous, ill-informed, badly written junk from a bloke who condones it.

Edited October 24, 2005 by bez

[adios 717]

Yep just the once, mind I'm in the Milburn L7 where they are all posh.

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See, I knew it.

 

If I'm looking at two people one of which is black and I want to point him out to someone, I'll say "the black one". That's not racist, that's descriptive. The idea of being 'colour blind' is quite distasteful I think. It has a negative connotation. As if to say "I don't mind that your black" Well why would you? Is it a bad thing to be black?

 

The prejudice has to be removed from the victim and placed on the racist.

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Don't even bother, I've tried to explain it to him before, he just doesn't get it.

[Meenzer 14166]

Part of the problem is that - when it comes to opposition players, though this doesn't really hold sway for your own team - the crowd mentality at football matches will inevitably tend to focus on the perceived Achilles heel of a player if it's seen to be effective. Racism might have become socially unacceptable these days to an extent where you only get individual comments from unenlightened people at matches rather than collective chants, but in many cases I'm sure the desired effect is no different to the motivation behind calling Viduka a fat bastard, singing "he's a dwarf, a dwarf" at Dennis Wise or Juninho, or the kind of stick I'm sure the first openly gay footballer will get (and plenty of supposedly effeminate but straight footballers get now) - i.e. to vent your frustration and put them off their game a bit. Obviously I'm not equating racism with "fattism" or claiming it's even remotely acceptable, but being in a large and basically anonymous group of people can do interesting things to folks who otherwise wouldn't say boo to a goose...

Edited October 24, 2005 by Meenzer

[Jusoda Kid 1]

Have to say I've heard people calling Ameobi a big, skinny useless black bastard of late, totally uncalled for imo. Bet the same people weren't calling him it yesterday

[bez 0]

Part of the problem is that - when it comes to opposition players, though this doesn't really hold sway for your own team - the crowd mentality at football matches will inevitably tend to focus on the perceived Achilles heel of a player if it's seen to be effective. Racism might have become socially unacceptable these days to an extent where you only get individual comments from unenlightened people at matches rather than collective chants, but in many cases I'm sure the desired effect is no different to the motivation behind calling Viduka a fat bastard, singing "he's a dwarf, a dwarf" at Dennis Wise or Juninho, or the kind of stick I'm sure the first openly gay footballer will get (and plenty of supposedly effeminate but straight footballers get now) - i.e. to vent your frustration and put them off their game a bit. Obviously I'm not equating racism with "fattism" or claiming it's even remotely acceptable, but being in a large and basically anonymous group of people can do interesting things to folks who otherwise wouldn't say boo to a goose...

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Yeah, i used to think like that. It happens a lot. The majority are fine. The minority arent. Not explicity that is. I heard various decent people call Andy Cole things in an out of the ground they shouldnt have when he came back. That they 'didnt mean it' like that isnt good enough.

Edited October 24, 2005 by bez

[bez 0]

Have to say I've heard people calling Ameobi a big, skinny useless black bastard of late, totally uncalled for imo. Bet the same people weren't calling him it yesterday

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[Happy Face 29]

Part of the problem is that - when it comes to opposition players, though this doesn't really hold sway for your own team - the crowd mentality at football matches will inevitably tend to focus on the perceived Achilles heel of a player if it's seen to be effective. Racism might have become socially unacceptable these days to an extent where you only get individual comments from unenlightened people at matches rather than collective chants, but in many cases I'm sure the desired effect is no different to the motivation behind calling Viduka a fat bastard, singing "he's a dwarf, a dwarf" at Dennis Wise or Juninho, or the kind of stick I'm sure the first openly gay footballer will get (and plenty of supposedly effeminate but straight footballers get now) - i.e. to vent your frustration and put them off their game a bit. Obviously I'm not equating racism with "fattism" or claiming it's even remotely acceptable, but being in a large and basically anonymous group of people can do interesting things to folks who otherwise wouldn't say boo to a goose...

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Wasn't Justin Fashanu openly gay while playing. It's certainly why Clough had the police escort him away from training when he refused to leave.

[bez 0]

Part of the problem is that - when it comes to opposition players, though this doesn't really hold sway for your own team - the crowd mentality at football matches will inevitably tend to focus on the perceived Achilles heel of a player if it's seen to be effective. Racism might have become socially unacceptable these days to an extent where you only get individual comments from unenlightened people at matches rather than collective chants, but in many cases I'm sure the desired effect is no different to the motivation behind calling Viduka a fat bastard, singing "he's a dwarf, a dwarf" at Dennis Wise or Juninho, or the kind of stick I'm sure the first openly gay footballer will get (and plenty of supposedly effeminate but straight footballers get now) - i.e. to vent your frustration and put them off their game a bit. Obviously I'm not equating racism with "fattism" or claiming it's even remotely acceptable, but being in a large and basically anonymous group of people can do interesting things to folks who otherwise wouldn't say boo to a goose...

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Wasn't Justin Fashanu openly gay while playing. It's certainly why Clough had the police escort him away from training when he refused to leave.

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Not when he was at the peak of his career. It wasnt common knowledge to fans. Might have(and probably was) known within the game but he came out a little later.

Cloughs biography states that this issue was one of his biggest regrets. Basically he says he didnt understand Fashanu's problems and mismanaged them

[adios 717]

Not when he was at the peak of his career. It wasnt common knowledge to fans. Might have(and probably was) known within the game but he came out a little later.

Cloughs biography states that this issue was one of his biggest regrets. Basically he says he didnt understand Fashanu's problems and mismanaged them

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I must have a read of that. I always give the bloke a hard time, especially about that, but I should really see what hew has to say about it.

[LeazesMag 0]

Not when he was at the peak of his career. It wasnt common knowledge to fans. Might have(and probably was) known within the game but he came out a little later.

Cloughs biography states that this issue was one of his biggest regrets. Basically he says he didnt understand Fashanu's problems and mismanaged them

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I must have a read of that. I always give the bloke a hard time , especially about that, but I should really see what hew has to say about it.

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why

[adios 717]

why

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For being a bully and a bigot, mainly.

[peasepud 59]

Sorry if I repeat anyone here, board went a bit funny on me...

 

The first paragraph is weak.  Is the black white ratio 52,000:1? I can't find the stats but I'd guess it would be a lot higher than that (or should that be lower )

 

The second paragraph is misguided.  Do you not believe the police force should be representative of the nation.  Personally I have never seen a single black policeman.  That is an absolute disgrace.  The institutionally racist force is not an attractive prospect to intelligent black people.  They know they'll be in for a rough ride if they join.  I think the police force is one of the few places where I'd hire a weaker candidate as long as he/she was capable.

 

Two wrongs don't make a right? Yes they do -2-3 = 1.  Seriously though, a more fitting statement would be billions upon billions of wrongs over hundreds of years followed by a few decades of wrongs against the original wrongdoers for the purposes of eradicating the ongoing wrongdoing don't make a right.

 

Try saying that 3 times fast!

 

Edit:

48856[/snapback]

 

So are you saying that there was only one black person in the crowd yesterday? did you count them? so nobody was sitting beside you or in your line of vision? so what? it means nothing and even if there was none, that doesnt say we're racist, it says that on that day no black people wanted to go watch the toon. Are you saying that black people are afraid to go to the game or implying that NUFC stop black people buying tickets? Go down the Bigg Market on a Saturday night and you'll see black lads walking around without any hassles, if you can feel safe doing that then a football match isnt going to worry you.

 

Three times now in this thread I've seen mention of stats and government figures which state that this country is racist but am yet to see anyone post a link to these stats or even let it be known who produced them. I've given my view on that but we seem to have skipped it.

 

I've said it twice and others have too but now Im certain in my mind about it, the main people who highlight the colour of a persons skin are those that claim they're not racist and tell us all we are. I can honestly say that I dont notice the colour of skin in any way other than if asked to describe a person. I dont see a black lad as being any different to me but if I started bleating on about how hard it must be for Dyer or Shola or Joe Bloggs down the road because they're black then Im patronising them and frankly highlighting the only difference to make an issue of it.

 

As for what appears to be a dig at HTT with reference to racism..whats all that about? I've never seen anything to make me think HTT is racist or agrees with racism. Would you care to explain it?

[Rob W 0]

I'm going to largely agree with bez here. I can see why people disagree, pointing to white players who get stick etc, but for me it's a case of black players often having to do more to prove themselves. I think the Baba/Carr analogy is a useful one. Bramble has come in for an awful lot of stick and I don't think it has simply been as a result of his supposed poor form. I'm not going to repeat bez's arguments, sure the point is understood.

 

For me, there is sometimes an undercurrent of racism in such instances. If you don't agree, that's fine, I can't prove it - it's something I feel aware of but could never statistically prove. What I can prove is that black people can be victims of prejudice in society and racism is often implicity suggested - people can't get away with outright abuse in the way they used to be able to. I only rarely hear obvious racism at the ground, 'black cunt' or whatever.

 

Disagreeing is fine, but I think a lot of people have dismissed out of hand the notion that people can be subconsciously racist. I think it's almost impossible at times not to be driven to by prejudice or ingrained ideas or assumptions. I don't see why football is any different.

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not sure Bridget

 

I thinlk Ameobi gets stick because he is so inconsistent and Bramble can sometimes look like the worst defender we've ever seen - white coloured people like Robert, Butt and (shudder) Marcelino) got the same

 

In the UK there is now very very little racism expressed against players - people have seen the light I think

[Happy Face 29]

So are you saying that there was only one black person in the crowd yesterday? did you count them? so nobody was sitting beside you or in your line of vision? so what? it means nothing and even if there was none, that doesnt say we're racist, it says that on that day no black people wanted to go watch the toon. Are you saying that black people are afraid to go to the game or implying that NUFC stop black people buying tickets? Go down the Bigg Market on a Saturday night and you'll see black lads walking around without any hassles, if you can feel safe doing that then a football match isnt going to worry you.

 

Three times now in this thread I've seen mention of stats and government figures which state that this country is racist but am yet to see anyone post a link to these stats or even let it be known who produced them. I've given my view on that but we seem to have skipped it.

 

I've said it twice and others have too but now Im certain in my mind about it, the main people who highlight the colour of a persons skin are those that claim they're not racist and tell us all we are. I can honestly say that I dont notice the colour of skin in any way other than if asked to describe a person. I dont see a black lad as being any different to me but if I started bleating on about how hard it must be for Dyer or Shola or Joe Bloggs down the road because they're black then Im patronising them and frankly highlighting the only difference to make an issue of it.

 

As for what appears to be a dig at HTT with reference to racism..whats all that about? I've never seen anything to make me think HTT is racist or agrees with racism. Would you care to explain it?

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I'm not saying anyone on here or anyone at Newcastle is racist, but that society is. Looking at my earlier posts and yours I think we agree. Look at the number of black role models in the world of football compared to the number of black fans that go to games. It's entirely disproportionate. Simply because football crowds were (for a long time) under fear of white thugs. Fear of the abuse, rather than the actuality keeps people away.

 

I agree you'll see black people out on the town with a younger crowd, but rarely in quieter locals or working mens clubs. Until black people are invited warmly into these places I won't be convinced there isn't an underlying problem.

 

As for what appears to be a dig at HTT with reference to racism..whats all that about? I've never seen anything to make me think HTT is racist or agrees with racism. Would you care to explain it?

 

It wasn't a dig at HTT, it was my opinion on his comment. I'm sure HTT is a lovely bloke, all be it with a shark problem (sharkist?).

I got the same story from an English teacher at school who said her son did the same thing, and it sends out the wrong message, that it's offensive to be black and be recognised as such. If kids are still being told that's the way to think then it'll be a long time till racism isn't a problem.

[Happy Face 29]

And I just heard Rosa Parks has died.

 

RIP

[LeazesMag 0]

why

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For being a bully and a bigot, mainly.

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I thought you meant a successful manager, who was such a good manager, players followed him from club to club to play for him for a moment ....

 

Read his books. And those by others who talk about him. Clough was no bully.

 

He is, sadly, the sort of manager that Souness can only dream of being

[LeazesMag 0]

Sorry if I repeat anyone here, board went a bit funny on me...

 

The first paragraph is weak.  Is the black white ratio 52,000:1? I can't find the stats but I'd guess it would be a lot higher than that (or should that be lower )

 

The second paragraph is misguided.  Do you not believe the police force should be representative of the nation.  Personally I have never seen a single black policeman.  That is an absolute disgrace.  The institutionally racist force is not an attractive prospect to intelligent black people.  They know they'll be in for a rough ride if they join.  I think the police force is one of the few places where I'd hire a weaker candidate as long as he/she was capable.

 

Two wrongs don't make a right? Yes they do -2-3 = 1.  Seriously though, a more fitting statement would be billions upon billions of wrongs over hundreds of years followed by a few decades of wrongs against the original wrongdoers for the purposes of eradicating the ongoing wrongdoing don't make a right.

 

Try saying that 3 times fast!

 

Edit:

48856[/snapback]

 

So are you saying that there was only one black person in the crowd yesterday? did you count them? so nobody was sitting beside you or in your line of vision? so what? it means nothing and even if there was none, that doesnt say we're racist, it says that on that day no black people wanted to go watch the toon. Are you saying that black people are afraid to go to the game or implying that NUFC stop black people buying tickets? Go down the Bigg Market on a Saturday night and you'll see black lads walking around without any hassles, if you can feel safe doing that then a football match isnt going to worry you.

 

Three times now in this thread I've seen mention of stats and government figures which state that this country is racist but am yet to see anyone post a link to these stats or even let it be known who produced them. I've given my view on that but we seem to have skipped it.

 

I've said it twice and others have too but now Im certain in my mind about it, the main people who highlight the colour of a persons skin are those that claim they're not racist and tell us all we are. I can honestly say that I dont notice the colour of skin in any way other than if asked to describe a person. I dont see a black lad as being any different to me but if I started bleating on about how hard it must be for Dyer or Shola or Joe Bloggs down the road because they're black then Im patronising them and frankly highlighting the only difference to make an issue of it.

 

As for what appears to be a dig at HTT with reference to racism..whats all that about? I've never seen anything to make me think HTT is racist or agrees with racism. Would you care to explain it?

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totally agree, especially the bold bit.

 

As for black coppers, I have seen black coppers. And, whats your solution HE, fast track them, as you seem to be saying too ?

 

And You have to select the right candidates.

 

On one hand, you say highlighting a persons colour is wrong, then you say you need to do it. Roll on the PC brigade again eh ....

[Happy Face 29]

As for black coppers, I have seen black coppers. And, whats your solution HE, fast track them, as you seem to be saying too ?

 

And You have to select the right candidates.

 

On one hand, you say highlighting a persons colour is wrong, then you say you need to do it. Roll on the PC brigade again eh ....

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No, you're misrepresenting what I say quite a bit there. There's a difference between 'highlighting' someones skin colour negatively to cause harm or pain or to hinder their progression; and pointing out the most distinguishing feature about them in order to identify them. My point is directed precisely against the 80's PC brigade who got it in their heads that any reference to a persons skin colour is wrong.

 

Sorry, I've remembered I've seen a few black coppers too, but they were all on telly, so they were more black actors. I don't know what you mean 'Fast track'? What I'm saying is a black applicants to the police force should be looked upon very favourably and if they meet the entry criteria encouraged in every way to join.

 

I'm coming accross as a right crusader here. I'm not (see the bad taste thread).