Gemmill 34464 Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 (edited) Aye but Armstrong built all of that on cheating. Is the suggestion that Brailsford has been doping riders all the way back to the track days and through the Olympics too? Cos if not then it's quite a decision to get into all of that after he's built his reputation. Edited July 14, 2015 by Gemmill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toonotl 2415 Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 (edited) I guess. I don't know what I'm accusing him of to be honest. It just stinks I tells ya. My basis for suspicion is from what I've seen in the past. Admittedly, I have to acknowledge there is no evidence against Sky, or Froome. The only basis for doubt is what I, and many others, can see when they watch Sky destroy their opposition. The thing is I've watched cycling for a long time and I've seen a lot of cheats. Generally, when it comes to dopers in cycling where there's smoke there's fire. Sky's dominance is absolute, and it stinks to high heaven. As for Brailsford potentially cheating his entire career. It wouldn't surprise me. Typically cycling cheats have cheated from day dot. Once again though, there's no evidence outside of my observations. I'm using deductive reasoning in the worst way, but fuck it. I don't believe them. I should add that the main basis for my doubt comes from Armstrong. I suspected him from '99. I hated him immediately because I thought he was a cheater. I argued with hundreds of people about it for 14 years with people telling me, 'there is no evidence', 'he's never tested positive'. Then it started slowly coming out as Armstrong pissed people off. Betsy Andreu, Emma O'Reilly, Greg Lemond. All dismissed as disgruntled alcoholics, whores and drug addicts. Then Landis got burned and he spoke up. But he was a cheating crackpot too. Then Hamilton, more cogent than Landis, but, nonetheless, still another a cheater. Then the Feds got involved and the floodgates opened with more testimony from former teammates and failed drug tests from Armstrong. I fully expect the same pattern to repeat itself with Sky. Froome isn't as abrasive as Armstrong, if at all, but there will be those that speak up. Eventually. Edited July 14, 2015 by toonotl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 34464 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 I don't think it's conceivable that Brailsford has been doping going all the way back to Beijing in 2008 and nothing has come out about it. No positive tests, no disgruntled rejected riders from the programme coming forward. There hasn't been even a whiff of a scandal about it and there almost certainly would have been if it was an organised and coordinated doping programme. The smoke with Armstrong came almost immediately from multiple sources, all pointing to the fact that something wasn't right. By the way, all of this is from someone that hasn't watched the sport anywhere near as long as you or wykiki have. And whilst I like a couple of the blokes on the Sky team, I'm not desperate for them to win or anything like that, but I'm not sure that the argument that their "dominance is absolute". They've won the tour a couple of times, and look like winning it again, but they've been canny shite in the Vuelta and the Giro and it's not like they're winning by scandalous margins in the tour either I dunno, the more I think about the stage (and admittedly the more I listen to a couple of podcasts), the more I don't think what we saw yesterday was all that mental. It was made to look really bad by the fact that Contador and Nibali couldn't hack it, but Nibali has looked out of sorts all week and he was shelled out the back long before Froome attacked (i.e. most of the time he lost to Froome yesterday was already lost before Froome even attacked). Same goes for Contador although to a lesser extent. And the argument that Thomas shouldn't be crossing the line with Valverde, don't forget Valverde had been playing silly buggers all the way up the climb attacking for Quintana and had likely fucked himself in doing so. If you set aside the big lads getting their arses handed to them as well, and look at who came in between Froome and them, you've got Robert Gesink only 1:31 behind Froome (and a good 30 seconds ahead of Thomas and Valverde), and then you've got Adam Yates and Pierre Roland finishing within seconds of Valverde and Thomas, which, alongside Gesink, puts their performance into a bit more of a sensible context. Tony Gallopin finished before Teejay van Garderen and 20 seconds ahead of Contador. The post-stage comments from Contador about not being able to breathe as soon as they hit the climb tells you that he was out of sorts as much as Froome was having a blinder, and you've got Fuglsang coming out and saying that he looked at Nibali and could see his head had completely gone (Nibali also said he was having breathing problems on the climb). Fuglsang has now been appointed team leader for the rest of the race btw, which tells you that Nibali is fully fucked. Take all that together and it's not that unbelievable a result imo. Honestly, I've no idea either if Froome is a doper and I don't have an invested interest in him not being one. The defence rests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toonotl 2415 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 (edited) Yeah. I admit my doubts are not really based on anything empirical, and there are always going to be mitigating circumstances that make their performances look less suspicious. I pay that no attention because I've heard it all before. I just don't believe them. It's all too familiar. Even the counter-arguments against them being doped are the same. Example: Hautacam 2000 1 Javier Otxoa (Spa) Kelme-Costa Blanca 6.09.32 (33.29 km/h)2 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal Service 0.423 José Maria Jimenez (Spa) Banesto 1.134 Richard Virenque (Fra) Team Polti 1.575 Manuel Beltran (Spa) Mapei-Quick Step6 Fernando Escartin (Spa) Kelme-Costa Blanca 2.027 Roberto Heras (Spa) Kelme-Costa Blanca8 Christophe Moreau (Fra) Festina 3.059 Joseba Beloki (Spa) Festina 3.3510 Alex Zulle (Swi) Banesto 3.47 Otxoa won. Surviving from a breakaway, so ignore him. Jiminez attacked just before Armstrong did. Armstrong dropped everyone for over a minute, including big names like Virenque, Heras, Zulle, Ulle & Pantani, but not Jiminez. So Virenque, Heras, Zulle, Ulle, & Pantani just had bad days because no-name Jiminez only lost 30 seconds to Armstrong, right? Armstrong had a good day. Everyone else just had a bad day, right? Armstrong's clean because Jiminez wasn't blown away, right? It's the same shit Gem. There would be very similar examples for every Tour stage where Armstrong destroyed his opposition. Its not just one performance that made him, or Sky, suspicious. It's the incessantly 'not normal' performances. Stage after stage. Year after year. It's seriously like a time-warp. As for why there's no evidence? When Armstrong started there was no test for EPO. You basically had to get caught injecting yourself to be busted. Blood-transfusions were simply not done, so there was no test for them either. It was the dark ages compared to today. So why no evidence on Sky? Maybe it's because Sky need to hide the evidence, whereas USP didn't need to hide shit. In '99 Armstrong didn't need to be careful with glow time or anything because you couldn't get caught. Sky operate in a completely different environment from the environment that produced positives for Armstrong. For me, Sky learnt their lessons from USP. Then you have Armstrong's personality. He grated at people. A lot of people think he's a full blown sociopath. He made enemies up and down, inside and outside, the peleton. Read up on what he did to Filipo Simeoni, just as one very small example. Could you imagine Froome doing the same to a fellow rider? Armstrong thought he was indestructible and gave no shits how many people he ruined. Sky, Brailsford and Froome are not like that. They are more level-headed, more capable of controlling the message. I know this is getting into crackpot conspiracy theory territory, but I simply don't believe. Maybe I'm just jaded, but I have very little doubt that I'm right. By the by, that Sky is rubbish at the Giro or Veulta is also exactly the same modus operandi as USP. US Postal did nothing more or less all year leading into the Tour because their doping program was dialled in to peak for the Tour. Edited July 15, 2015 by toonotl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj 17 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 You dropped your foil hat whilst ranting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toonotl 2415 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 (edited) You dropped your foil hat whilst ranting. Bookmark this page. For 10 years time when I'm proven right. Edited July 15, 2015 by toonotl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wykikitoon 16652 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 (edited) Like I said previously, the Dawg and Porte you expect to go full retard.Dawg beat Riis time and Pantani's time yesterday. Both dopers, yet nothing is made of it by the British media. But come on, 10 weeks or so ago Thomas was a contender for the Classics, a favourite for RvV for fucksake. Then suddenly he loses 8kg with ZERO power loss. EIGHT FUCKING KILO! To you and I (maybe not you Gem ) thats easily achievable due to our body fat % but to an elite road racer he doesnt have eight fucking kilo to loose in 8 weeks!!! He simply cannot do that without pharmaceutical help! If he lost 8kg naturally by starving himself, he loses muscle and therefore power. He finished with known climbers for fuck sake and even had the balls to say he could have gone harder. Thomas a GC climber!!! WHAT THE FUCK! All you have to do is read the reactions on Twitter regarding yesterday from Ex Pro's and Ex dopers. Sean Yates's face said it all when he said Froome had gone up a hill quickly. He fucking crushed them! Its History repeating itself and its made worse by the cunts saying how clean they are and the British Media and commentators wanking over them. Edited July 15, 2015 by wykikitoon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wykikitoon 16652 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 It's very difficult to believe this Astana performance at the Giro is legit. Thats is another thing. Whats the difference between Astana doing it at the Giro thats dodgy and Sky doing EXACTLY the same at the Tour being legit? Yes, Astana have dodgy DS's and a very dodgy past. But if Sky are beating Astana who are dodgy the surly Sky are dodgy? Thats what makes me laugh. I see it on my FB and Twitter, people knocking a mix out over Sky, yet a few weeks previously its knocking Astana for being dodgy. What will Sky fans say when they sign Landa from Astana? The most dodgy one in the Giro! "He hasnt tested positive" oh thats ok then.......neither did Pantani. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wykikitoon 16652 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 It's very difficult to believe this Astana performance at the Giro is legit. Thats is another thing. Whats the difference between Astana doing it at the Giro thats dodgy and Sky doing EXACTLY the same at the Tour being legit? Yes, Astana have dodgy DS's and a very dodgy past. But if Sky are beating Astana who are dodgy the surly Sky are dodgy? Thats what makes me laugh. I see it on my FB and Twitter, people knocking a mix out over Sky, yet a few weeks previously its knocking Astana for being dodgy. What will Sky fans say when they sign Landa from Astana? The most dodgy one in the Giro! "He hasnt tested positive" oh thats ok then.......neither did Pantani. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toonotl 2415 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 (edited) Charge!! Gem right now: Sorry Gemmers. This is mostly my fault. Edited July 15, 2015 by toonotl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 34464 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Look radgepackets, I've no idea what the truth is. I do know that it's fucked the rest of the tour though, which is a big shame cos no one is catching skeletor now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wykikitoon 16652 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Look radgepackets, I've no idea what the truth is. I do know that it's fucked the rest of the tour though, which is a big shame cos no one is catching skeletor now. I am off to Alpe d'Huez next week. Watch out for me, I will be the one running alongside the Dawg with a syringe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toonotl 2415 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 (edited) I am off to Alpe d'Huez next week. Watch out for me, I will be the one running alongside the Dawg with a syringe He'll get a TUE for it. No worries. Edited July 15, 2015 by toonotl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 34464 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 I am off to Alpe d'Huez next week. Watch out for me, I will be the one running alongside the Dawg with a syringe get this gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30414 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toonotl 2415 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wykikitoon 16652 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Another video has been leaked. Seems like Wiggins is out to kill Froome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 34464 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 What video is this then? I heard about the Ventoux one. You got a link? Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toonotl 2415 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 (edited) http://www.chronoswatts.com/en/ This maybe? It's definitely not a smoking gun or anything. Just add it to the pile because this will be death by a thousand cuts until someone decides to talk. History of Lance Armstrong doping allegations Froome/Sky tracking nicely though. Edited July 15, 2015 by toonotl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wykikitoon 16652 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 No smoking gun? Shooting upoto 800w with zero change in HR level. No smoking gun indeed, just a fuck off massive firing one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj 17 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Well I mean Gemmill's heart rate wouldn't change either, doesn't mean he's on the juice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj 17 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 I might see if any of the peleton want to buy some of my surplus tramadol. Could make a killing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toonotl 2415 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 No smoking gun? Shooting upoto 800w with zero change in HR level. No smoking gun indeed, just a fuck off massive firing one Zero? Come on now. Don't put me in a position where I have to defend Froome from hyperbole. It's not the death knell by any stretch. Pretending it is is silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toonotl 2415 Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 https://soundcloud.com/offtheball/ross-tucker-on-chris-fromme Very interesting little interview with Ross Tucker, a sports scientist, who has very big doubts about the sincerity of Sky and Froome's performances. Talks about the Ventoux data video and the first Mtn. stage of this Tour. He talks about the lack of a smoking gun and the accumulation of small pieces of evidence. I've heard that somewhere before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj 17 Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Good for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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