Politics

[Rayvin 6727]

Can absolutely see why it scarred Israeli people. Can absolutely see how it stoked hatred. It's a perpetual cycle of violence in which both sides have hurt each other enough now that they feel that anything they do in reply is justified.

[Dr Gloom 24726]

48 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

I wonder if that's because October 7th was more seen as an actual of terror whereas Israel's attack on Gaza is state led? I don't recall many US flags after 9/11 either, for instance. But everybody I know and the media were both horrified by both events. I'd say the media has been more than supportive of Israel since and not condemnatory anywhere near enough of the horrors their government is committing.

When I see a Palestinian flags I think it just means a different thing to me than you. I don't see it as an act of hatred against the Jewish people, I see it as a sign of solidarity for the Palestinian people. I am aware there are also unsavoury messages especially at marches but you can't ascribe that to all people who are horrified by this war.

 

Oh, and Tommy Robinson doesn't have your back, he is just slightly more islamophobic than he is antisemitic. I am sure you know this.

No, I don’t see the waving of a Palestinian flag as an act of hatred against Jewish people. Like you, I see it as an expression of support for the Palestinian cause. I already said I found the show of support during kneecap’s set at Glastonbury moving. I suppose I’m just trying to explain the Jewish paranoia. My family was touched by the holocaust. It’s hard to get over the feeling that you have a lot of enemies in the world even a couple of generations later. 
 

I wouldn’t have dared march on the streets of London carrying a Star of David flag in the days following October 7. Seemingly not many other people would either. 
 

Re:Tommy Robinson, I’m sure he and his supporters would come for the Jews after the Muslims. It’s just deeply depressing that it only tends to be the right wing racists who are on our side. Maybe we are the baddies in the David Mitchell meme. 
 

Like I said, I have checked out of these conversations with friends - good friends whom I’m otherwise politically aligned with. 
 

Edit: to your point about the unsavoury messages at the marches, it’s not dissimilar to chanting “death to the IDF”. Lots of people who chant “from the river to the sea” or “there is only one solution: Intafada, revolution” do so not knowing the true meaning. There are plenty however who understand these are calls for the destruction of Israel and murder of its people.  
 

the same goes for those who

choose to wear Hamas/hezbollah hats or flags

Edited yesterday at 08:26 by Dr Gloom

[Renton 25092]

34 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

I wouldn’t have dared march on the streets of London carrying a Star of David flag in the days following October 7

 

As others I can't say I understand what it's like in London but I'm surprised at this because I think the vast majority of people were sympathetic to Israel at this stage. But, as I said because Hamas is a proscribed terrorist group, I'm not sure what any march would be meant to achieve? The condemnation of Hamas was near universal and Hamas was not supported by our government. Whereas our government has, rightly or wrongly, been seen as complicit in the hugely disproportionate genocidal response, and that's why there is protests imo.

 

I'll leave it there, like I said in my first post I'm acutely aware of the sensitivities involved. At the end of the day nothing anybody does here will have any alrffect, I just hope the hatred bred in that part of the World stops being a contagion.

Edited yesterday at 08:42 by Renton

[Rayvin 6727]

Apologies if people aren't ready to move on with this yet but I find this too interesting not to raise it and I'll forget if I wait a day.

 

 

https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/52431-how-would-britain-vote-a-year-since-the-2024-election

 

This poll is really interesting to me - Labour is down 7% to Reform, but down 18% to LD and Greens combined. So again, why are we pandering to that 7%... Reform are clearly eating the Tories, not Labour.

[Renton 25092]

11 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Apologies if people aren't ready to move on with this yet but I find this too interesting not to raise it and I'll forget if I wait a day.

 

 

https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/52431-how-would-britain-vote-a-year-since-the-2024-election

 

This poll is really interesting to me - Labour is down 7% to Reform, but down 18% to LD and Greens combined. So again, why are we pandering to that 7%... Reform are clearly eating the Tories, not Labour.

 

Great question, I dunno. I can only guess because Labour's strategists are absolutely fucking useless.

[Dr Gloom 24726]

16 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Apologies if people aren't ready to move on with this yet but I find this too interesting not to raise it and I'll forget if I wait a day.

 

 

https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/52431-how-would-britain-vote-a-year-since-the-2024-election

 

This poll is really interesting to me - Labour is down 7% to Reform, but down 18% to LD and Greens combined. So again, why are we pandering to that 7%... Reform are clearly eating the Tories, not Labour.

 

i'm ready to move on. i'm sorry for steering the israel/palestine discussion down a path we have covered in the past. i'm going to try to stop doing that on here. 

 

these numbers highlight everything that starmer is getting wrong. you can't win these voters back from reform by fighting them on their ground. all he's doing is losing the left flank. 

 

 

[ewerk 35030]

5 hours ago, Dr Gloom said:

Maybe we are the baddies in the David Mitchell meme. 

See, this is the bit I don’t get. I don’t conflate being Jewish with the actions of the Israeli government or even necessarily the state of Israel but it seems like because of your background that you do.

[Gemmill 53841]

Reeves in tears and looking absolutely fucking wrecked in PMQs when Badenoch started questioning her future. 

 

Apparently it was due to "a personal matter", but who knows. 

[Renton 25092]

Sounds like s bit of a nerve from Badenoch that mind. I mean surely the come back is obvious?

 

 

[Gemmill 53841]

Starmer made that comeback but also failed to guarantee that Reeves would remain in post. So Badenoch stands up and, with a visibly upset Reeves sat next to Starmer, says "what a shame for the Chancellor he couldn't give her that guarantee". 

 

Oof. 

 

Of course they've come out and said she's safe etc afterwards, but Labour are in total disarray at the minute.

[Kid Dynamite 8157]

I'm not sure we can completely equate the Palestine and Ukraine situations.
 

The latter is a large country with a fully functioning armed forces that is being supported by Europe to defend itself against Russia. The former is a tiny population that is effectively being subject to genocide with little in the way of wider support.

The images of blown up kids are all over social media and it's on the news all day ever day, so of course Joe Public is going to be more aware of what's happening in Palestine over Ukraine in the here and now. 

[Craig 8098]

1 hour ago, Gemmill said:

Reeves in tears and looking absolutely fucking wrecked in PMQs when Badenoch started questioning her future. 

 

Apparently it was due to "a personal matter", but who knows. 

Fair play to Stephen Flynn, who I normally think is quite brash, for showing some humanity on Social Media and wishing her well. 

She might be Chancellor of the Exchequer, but she's also a human being and that's often forgotten about - especially in politics. The cause of her distress is a private matter and not in the the public interests if doesn't wish it to be.  The fact Badenoch used it as a platform to weaponise her distress is something I've found deeply abhorrent. 

[Gemmill 53841]

The Tories have come out and said that saying it is a personal matter doesn't cut it and we need to know what it is. Which is genuinely appalling. 

 

 

As shit as Labour are, that lot are nasty cunts. 

[Craig 8098]

We live in an age where we're frequently reminded to be considerate to mental health and those cunts come out with something like that. Arseholes!

A lot of mention of it being to do with an altercation she had yesterday with Lindsay Hoyle but it's questionable that would draw such raw emotion 24hrs down the line. 

I hope it is something genuinely personal and that if she does have the courage to disclose, those cunts feel unbelievably ashamed. They won't, though. 

[Rayvin 6727]

1 hour ago, Gemmill said:

Starmer made that comeback but also failed to guarantee that Reeves would remain in post. So Badenoch stands up and, with a visibly upset Reeves sat next to Starmer, says "what a shame for the Chancellor he couldn't give her that guarantee". 

 

Oof. 

 

Of course they've come out and said she's safe etc afterwards, but Labour are in total disarray at the minute.

 

It very much sounds like she might done. Politically, I won't miss her - but saying that I assume everything she's done has been with his full blessing, so I'm not sure what the issue would be here.

[Kid Dynamite 8157]

17 minutes ago, Craig said:

We live in an age where we're frequently reminded to be considerate to mental health and those cunts come out with something like that. Arseholes!

A lot of mention of it being to do with an altercation she had yesterday with Lindsay Hoyle but it's questionable that would draw such raw emotion 24hrs down the line. 

I hope it is something genuinely personal and that if she does have the courage to disclose, those cunts feel unbelievably ashamed. They won't, though. 

Yep. She might have had a relationship break up, a family bereavement. Who the fuck knows, but it's got fuck all to do with Badenoch.

 

That said, if one of my nurses was in floods of tears at work I'd probably take her out of the firing line and give her some time off

[Renton 25092]

1 hour ago, Rayvin said:

 

It very much sounds like she might done. Politically, I won't miss her - but saying that I assume everything she's done has been with his full blessing, so I'm not sure what the issue would be here.

 

Just watching C4 news. Apparently the markets flipped when they thought she might have resigned, but calmed when Labour confirmed she was safe.

 

 

This is the issue we have now, if Labour don't do what the markets want, the bond yield rises and we're all fucked. Starmer and Reeves are constantly between a rock and a hard place here. Its easy to snipe from the sidelines but I'm just not hearing from the Tories, Reform, Liberal Dems, Greens or Labour Left what the answer is. "Wealth tax" seems to be the cry but how would this work in practice, would it spook the markets, or would it have other unforeseen consequences? None of this is easy.

[Rayvin 6727]

6 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Just watching C4 news. Apparently the markets flipped when they thought she might have resigned, but calmed when Labour confirmed she was safe.

 

 

This is the issue we have now, if Labour don't do what the markets want, the bond yield rises and we're all fucked. Starmer and Reeves are constantly between a rock and a hard place here. Its easy to snipe from the sidelines but I'm just not hearing from the Tories, Reform, Liberal Dems, Greens or Labour Left what the answer is. "Wealth tax" seems to be the cry but how would this work in practice, would it spook the markets, or would it have other unforeseen consequences? None of this is easy.

 

I mean this in the nicest possible way - I don't give a flying fuck about the markets.  If they can survive chaos like Trump, they can survive pretty much anything.

 

Beyond that, whether the others have a plan or not, they're under no obligation to give any pointers to the government. Labour took the same stance when the Tories were in charge, they said absolutely fuck all about what they would do.

 

But I do have something for you anyway, as it goes - rejoin the EU. That's what I'd be yelling for. £36bn a year out of the public purse...

 

That wealth tax is coming by the way, Gen Z and Alpha are going to eat people alive at this rate. Unsure how the markets would react to several generations worth of desperate, frustrated rage - but we'll see.

[Renton 25092]

8 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I mean this in the nicest possible way - I don't give a flying fuck about the markets.  If they can survive chaos like Trump, they can survive pretty much anything.

 

Beyond that, whether the others have a plan or not, they're under no obligation to give any pointers to the government. Labour took the same stance when the Tories were in charge, they said absolutely fuck all about what they would do.

 

But I do have something for you anyway, as it goes - rejoin the EU. That's what I'd be yelling for. £36bn a year out of the public purse...

 

That wealth tax is coming by the way, Gen Z and Alpha are going to eat people alive at this rate. Unsure how the markets would react to several generations worth of desperate, frustrated rage - but we'll see.

 

You're talking like the markets are some abstract thing. They're not, Truss's budget completely fucked my mortgage and my finances, and there's millions of people like me. And then there's the national debt to think about, and the interest to be paid which will push up the deficit and fuck public services even more.

 

Labour were actually pretty clear on what they would do, or at least what they wouldn't do, raise working taxes. They've kept their pledges and are still vilified for it.

 

I agree I'd like Brexit reversed. But this will have to be a gradual incremental move. And it will have to be done with agreement with all thee 27 EU countries and even some regions. Its not going to be a short process, and considering many EU countries are also struggling economically, it's also not a panacea.

[Rayvin 6727]

3 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

You're talking like the markets are some abstract thing. They're not, Truss's budget completely fucked my mortgage and my finances, and there's millions of people like me. And then there's the national debt to think about, and the interest to be paid which will push up the deficit and fuck public services even more.

 

Labour were actually pretty clear on what they would do, or at least what they wouldn't do, raise working taxes. They've kept their pledges and are still vilified for it.

 

I agree I'd like Brexit reversed. But this will have to be a gradual incremental move. And it will have to be done with agreement with all thee 27 EU countries and even some regions. Its not going to be a short process, and considering many EU countries are also struggling economically, it's also not a panacea.

 

It does have to be a gradual, incremental move. They could start by talking about it - might bring a few more people on board with these cuts, at least from the left.

 

See the thing is, I look at this and think "well, if the situation in the country was really that dire, they'd be telling the truth about it. They'd be acknowledging why we are where we are, and how urgently we need to rectify that". They're not doing that though, so I assume none of them are serious people and this is all just posturing to show they're tough on the economy.

[Howmanheyman 39023]

29 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

 

That wealth tax is coming by the way, Gen Z and Alpha are going to eat people alive at this rate. Unsure how the markets would react to several generations worth of desperate, frustrated rage - but we'll see.

 

"Say what, muthafucka?"

[ewerk 35030]

Ok boomer.

[Rayvin 6727]

17 minutes ago, Howmanheyman said:

 

"Say what, muthafucka?"

 

Generation Alpha is the latest one to be defined after Z I feel bad for the ones who grow up as Gen Beta.

[Howmanheyman 39023]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Generation Alpha is the latest one to be defined after Z I feel bad for the ones who grow up as Gen Beta.

Who's Z again? (and who makes this shit up?)

[Rayvin 6727]

1 minute ago, Howmanheyman said:

Who's Z again? (and who makes this shit up?)

 

Gen Z is anyone from late 90s to around 2010, from memory - so we're just about to start seeing the Alphas hit adulthood in the coming few years.

 

Z followed Millennials.

 

And I have no idea man, I suspect the media just throw shit around until something sticks and we all run with it.