Politics

[Renton 17783]

The Finnish system is excellent value though if you look at healthcare costs per capita GDP through e.g. OECD stats. It's more akin to the UK and Nordic models than Northern European models. Bottom line is, the NHS wasn't broken and had patient satisfaction, so why try and 'fix' it?

[ChezGiven 0]

Because people dont want to pay more taxes and in a recession, there is less tax revenue to pay for growing needs. This is not a static model either, the perspective policy makers take is not 'how are things today' its 'how will things look like in 10 years when the ratio of working to retired drops below critical funding points'.

 

The point about the Finnish guy was that he has to pay 2% of his income out of his pocket which is a lot less than Germany. Yet, the real measure is not 'out of pocket' its the overall tax burden since all systems cross-subsidise their public services from general taxation. So, if you pay 500 a month in Germany and 100 a month in Finland yet for the same 100k income you pay 5k less tax, then which system is better?

[Renton 17783]

I get that, I was unfortunate enough to have to write a 5000 page essay on the Finnish health service 2 years ago. The Finn's still pay less for their health care than the Germans though. They have a good balance of funding health through taxation, national insurance, and out-of-pocket fees; with the emphasis on the former, like the UK. Despite obvious geographical difficulties and problems with economy is scale and scope, their system is highly efficient and equitable. None of this supplier induced demand bullshit Parky has described.

 

This is all moot anyway; it's obvious the Tories would prefer an American type system of they could have their way.

[ewerk 26351]

5000 pages is quite an essay

[Christmas Tree 3997]

I get that, I was unfortunate enough to have to write a 5000 page essay on the Finnish health service 2 years ago. The Finn's still pay less for their health care than the Germans though. They have a good balance of funding health through taxation, national insurance, and out-of-pocket fees; with the emphasis on the former, like the UK. Despite obvious geographical difficulties and problems with economy is scale and scope, their system is highly efficient and equitable. None of this supplier induced demand bullshit Parky has described.

 

This is all moot anyway; it's obvious the Tories would prefer an American type system of they could have their way.

 

Considering you said yesterday you were not interested in political point scoring you keep banging on about what the Tories may do. At the same time you ignore all the privatisation that Labour has done such as handing over a NHS hospital to the private sector or allowing private firms to run out of care GP services. Never mind what Labour want to do in Manchester such as charging people for using A&E.

 

Its a fair enough argument whether privatisation is better or even inevitable, but to claim its just one party moving in that direction is not.

[ChezGiven 0]

Must have been fucking boring.

 

FYI - The Finnish system is not like the NHS, you have to pay out of pocket for your medical insurance. I thought the argument was against any form of insurance system and co-payments. A quick search on the topic gives me this

 

In Finland, more "newer" medicines are subsidized and available, but the level and coverage of subsidy is lower and thus, the patient cost burden is higher.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19744294

[ChezGiven 0]

Considering you said yesterday you were not interested in political point scoring you keep banging on about what the Tories may do. At the same time you ignore all the privatisation that Labour has done such as handing over a NHS hospital to the private sector or allowing private firms to run out of care GP services. Never mind what Labour want to do in Manchester such as charging people for using A&E.

 

Its a fair enough argument whether privatisation is better or even inevitable, but to claim its just one party moving in that direction is not.

I dont trust the tories to get it right, there are models out there that work but they wont take the pragmatic economics pov, they will follow their ideological noses which wont optimise the balance between access and efficiency.

[Renton 17783]

Words not pages! I mentioned out-of-pocket expenses. Fucked if I'm going to type in 5000 words on my iPhone though. Fact is, iirc 70% of funding is through municipal or national taxation though.

 

I'm not against copayments either. I can see a good argument for it for some services or treatments not deemed cost effective for instance. We've had it for decades here for dentistry and prescriptions anyway.

[Renton 17783]

 

I dont trust the tories to get it right, there are models out there that work but they wont take the pragmatic economics pov, they will follow their ideological noses which wont optimise the balance between access and efficiency.

 

This basically CT. it's a question of normative economics, not positivism more than anything else. If you don't think there's a difference between the parties then why support one over the over? Dave and George man love?

[Christmas Tree 3997]

I dont trust the tories to get it right, there are models out there that work but they wont take the pragmatic economics pov, they will follow their ideological noses which wont optimise the balance between access and efficiency.

 

I dont really trust any of them to get anything right if Im honest. Too much looking ahead as far as the next election and thats it.

[Renton 17783]

I thought you said Cameron was the best PM of your lifetime? If he can't get it right, who can?

[Christmas Tree 3997]

I thought you said Cameron was the best PM of your lifetime? If he can't get it right, who can?

 

He can't get it right cos your lot made sure there was "no money left" ho ho ho.

[PaddockLad 14585]

As Chez said a few weeks ago "narrative".....

[CleeToonFan 1]

The NHS, a source of national pride to the point it featured in our Olympic opening ceremony. The American health system, a joke to the rest of the Western world which cares very little for the actual people using it. Remind me, who should be aiming to emulate who? :s

[Matt 0]

This Govt is rapidly losing credibility. I just hope they somehow last long enough for Miliband and Balls to fall under a bus. Then it would also be nice if the new faces of the Labour party weren't ones Brown's cabinet.

[Park Life 70]

Just in time for the return of Blair.

[Christmas Tree 3997]

Let's face it, there's no money left and no room for any party of any colour to do anything meaningful.

 

This is why we have the fat pleb, whose name I Forget, (shadow chancellor), talking about a wealth tax on homes over 2 million.

 

Politics for the sheep.

[Park Life 70]

There's no will to do anything meaningful.

[ewerk 26351]

Lessons in politics from the man who can't name the shadow chancellor.

[Park Life 70]

Lessons in politics from the man who can't name the shadow chancellor.

 

Taxi driver stylee.

[Renton 17783]

Let's face it, there's no money left and no room for any party of any colour to do anything meaningful.

 

This is why we have the fat pleb, whose name I Forget, (shadow chancellor), talking about a wealth tax on homes over 2 million.

 

Politics for the sheep.

 

Your dire pessimism for the UK economy (managed decline) is in stark contrast to your optimistic online persona. Indeed you may be justified to an extent considering the OECD has cut this years growth forecasts from plus 1.8% to minus 0.7%. That's disastrous.

 

But was it inevitable? This was all predicted here years ago; the implementation of severe austerity measures with no plans for growth and with no plan B? History repeating itself.

 

Can you answer though why the UK is faring worse than all it's competitors bar Italy? This despite us not being shackled to the euro?Could it be that you aren't really do pessimistic after all; but rather you just can't admit your boys fucked up, big time? I think so.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Renton

[Park Life 70]

Our lot are living in fear of the IMF and the ratings agencies. What we really needed was massive Govt intervention (policy and financial) to kickstart the economy. Austerity measures have never ever worked anywhere ever and I challenge anybody on here to give me an example of it working. This is purely ideological rightwingery. UK bonds have always been one of the safest on the planet and we should have taken advantage of that to borrow and invest in the UK. Fuck me even Obama is talking about saving the middle class and has given 97 different pieces of legislation to create employment.

[Christmas Tree 3997]

 

But was it inevitable? This was all predicted here years ago; the implementation of severe austerity measures with no plans for growth and with no plan B? History repeating itself.

 

 

I dont think around 2010 anyone on here was predicting the dire effects the euro crisis was going to have. And the bit you dont seem to get is the "severe austerity measures" have hardly got started. They were all back loaded into the parliament which makes all this too much too fast bollocks so laughable.

 

I stand by my rather depressing managed decline scenario which is why things like privatising the NHS (saving money), Changing benefits (saving money), renegotiating public sector pay and pensions (saving money) are such big issues.

 

Its also why there isnt a shed of any new policies coming from Labour. (They too know there is nothing to be done and have more chance of winning if the fat shadow does his flatline gestures and talks about wealth taxes for the mong brigade).

 

I would love it, love it, if there was some party out there with a set of policies that could get this bloated country back on its feet again, but I dont see it.

 

We've had boom and bust, we've had spend, spend, spend. Now its just a good helping of shit pie.

[Renton 17783]

Forget Labour, you said when they were in power the shadow party (conservatives) were irrelevant so you can't have it both ways.

 

Why is our growth so dire compared with expectations? Why are we faring worse than our competitors when we have our own currency? Why has the government flip flopped on every issue bar the most important one, the economy?

 

Most of all, why can't you admit the party you so gleefully endorsed has FUCKED UP? After all, all this gloom and doom only arose after our predictions came true.

[Christmas Tree 3997]

Forget Labour, you said when they were in power the shadow party (conservatives) were irrelevant so you can't have it both ways.

 

Why is our growth so dire compared with expectations? Why are we faring worse than our competitors when we have our own currency? Why has the government flip flopped on every issue bar the most important one, the economy?

 

Most of all, why can't you admit the party you so gleefully endorsed has FUCKED UP? After all, all this gloom and doom only arose after our predictions came true.

 

No point me and you doing this as

 

1. Its all repetitive.

2. You ignore all the points I make.

3. It ends in tears.

 

I will however say I have been talking about the managed decline scenario for donkeys.