Politics

[Renton 17783]

15 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

Win power first, improve lives later. Enough with being principled in opposition. Do what you need to do to win power and then restore public services and invest 

 

I'd expect the fiscal rules to be subject to some creative accounting once Labour are in power. Capital investment on infrastructure projects for instance. We're never becoming a Nordic socialist style democracy in this country (as much as we would like it), just like the US is never getting anywhere close to becoming like the UK, but we can do a fuck of a lot better than this, starting with closer movement towards the EU (which is the lowest hanging fruit when it comes to growth). 

[Alex 30414]

News just in that Owen Jones plans to follow his announcement up with a hard hitting leaflet campaign 

[Rayvin 4964]

1 hour ago, Dr Gloom said:

Win power first, improve lives later. Enough with being principled in opposition. Do what you need to do to win power and then restore public services and invest 

 

Yeah and if that's how it goes, I promise all of you, I'll hold my hands up. I really hope that's what we see. But I just feel like there's too much chance that they immediately start thinking "well we won on this platform, we should stay here so that we can win next time too". And then everyone will be telling me that we have to keep the Tories out next time, the risk is too great, etc etc.

[Alex 30414]

What platform? People are going on like they’ve announced a programme of Reaganomics. Their platform is doing things differently to the Tories and improving people’s lives in the process. They’ll be judged on that. Not promises they make 6 months before an election or empty statements about Gaza or whatever else the Corbyn won the argument twats are obsessing over 

[Dr Gloom 19825]

10 minutes ago, Alex said:

What platform? People are going on like they’ve announced a programme of Reaganomics. Their platform is doing things differently to the Tories and improving people’s lives in the process. They’ll be judged on that. Not promises they make 6 months before an election or empty statements about Gaza or whatever else the Corbyn won the argument twats are obsessing over 

they haven’t really said anything tbh. And the strategy of winning by default is working, why change it? Don’t give them any attack lines

while they implode.
 

This strategy worked for Biden and he was able to roll out his transformative inflation reduction act. It’s just a shame that American voters are too dumb to join up the dots.  

[Gemmill 34464]

 

 

[Rayvin 4964]

1 hour ago, Alex said:

What platform? People are going on like they’ve announced a programme of Reaganomics. Their platform is doing things differently to the Tories and improving people’s lives in the process. They’ll be judged on that. Not promises they make 6 months before an election or empty statements about Gaza or whatever else the Corbyn won the argument twats are obsessing over 

 

Platform of "careful now"? Idk man, but whatever they're doing, I don't see why they'd be incentivised to change it. Maybe I'm wrong..!

[Rayvin 4964]

1 hour ago, Dr Gloom said:

they haven’t really said anything tbh. And the strategy of winning by default is working, why change it? Don’t give them any attack lines

while they implode.
 

This strategy worked for Biden and he was able to roll out his transformative inflation reduction act. It’s just a shame that American voters are too dumb to join up the dots.  

 

Biden looks like he might be at risk next time out though... becoming slightly concerned that the US might just be mental enough to bring Trump back.

[Alex 30414]

10 hours ago, Rayvin said:

 

Platform of "careful now"? Idk man, but whatever they're doing, I don't see why they'd be incentivised to change it. Maybe I'm wrong..!

Mate, I’m not exactly thrilled with the state of UK politics, or the world in general. But Labour giving the Tories a right fucking shoeing at the next general election is a definite positive in my view.  I don’t know where we’re headed off the back of that but it’s got to be better than the alternative. 

Edited March 22 by Alex

[Rayvin 4964]

9 minutes ago, Alex said:

Mate, I’m not exactly thrilled with the state of UK politics, or the world in general. But Labour giving the Tories a right fucking shoeing at the next general election is a definite positive in my view.  I don’t know where we’re headed off the back of that but it’s hit to be better than the alternative. 

 

I don't really disagree honestly, I just don't think any of the options on the table are meaningful enough to warrant me endorsing them as opposed to indicating that they're all failures in my eyes. Manifestos may change that but I doubt it based on what has been said.

 

It's not a big deal for me anymore tbh, I've just accepted that this is how it is. I won't cross my red lines but I also know that I'm completely irrelevant.

[Renton 17783]

1 hour ago, Rayvin said:

 

Platform of "careful now"? Idk man, but whatever they're doing, I don't see why they'd be incentivised to change it. Maybe I'm wrong..!

 

Not incentivised to improve people's lives? Even if you're massively cynical of all politicians (and I challenge you to look at Starmers bio and come to the conclusion his motivations are insincere), it makes sense to do this. Otherwise, you end up like the Tories this time round, especially when you have no client media on your side.

 

What do you think motivates the labour party leadership? 

Edited March 21 by Renton

[Renton 17783]

I did a fair bit of volunteer work for Labour in '97 and before. In all honesty I think the motivations were to improve the average person's lot in life. That was probably what my tory equivalents believed then too. It's different now on their side. That's one reason they have no volunteers. Leaflets galore, delivered through the post or by a contractor, paid for by cunts like Hester. And people can't see the difference or think it's worth discriminating between the options? Sheesh 

[Dr Gloom 19825]

4 hours ago, Alex said:

News just in that Owen Jones plans to follow his announcement up with a hard hitting leaflet campaign 

And if that isn’t enough, he’s thinking of car boot sales, t-shirts and maybe a benefit concert  

[Dr Gloom 19825]

1 hour ago, Rayvin said:

 

Biden looks like he might be at risk next time out though... becoming slightly concerned that the US might just be mental enough to bring Trump back.

Biden had a good four years and improved the state of the country. The Dems need another four years to embed a lot of the green transformation he introduced through the IRA. He showed how you win elections from the centre without over promising when you’re up against a divisive and unlikable opponent.

 

Unfortunately his ego to be a two term president has fucked them. He’s too old and doddery for it and voters don’t want him. He should stand aside for a younger candidate to run in his place and they’d win but I fear you’re right about trump. 

[RobinRobin 9230]

6 hours ago, Alex said:

News just in that Owen Jones plans to follow his announcement up with a hard hitting leaflet campaign 

And a boycoutt? 

[RobinRobin 9230]

10 hours ago, Gemmill said:

 

Uh oh. More racist scummers in the Reform ranks.

 

I thought it'd be a membership requirement. 

[Rayvin 4964]

3 hours ago, Renton said:

 

Not incentivised to improve people's lives? Even if you're massively cynical of all politicians (and I challenge you to look at Starmers bio and come to the conclusion his motivations are insincere), it makes sense to do this. Otherwise, you end up like the Tories this time round, especially when you have no client media on your side.

 

What do you think motivates the labour party leadership? 

 

I am massively cynical of them now, yes. And Starmer broke pledges he made that I believed in at the time of voting for him, so naturally I am particularly cynical of him. Background be damned. I keep saying this next point but it doesn't seem to ever go in - if everyone to the left of you just went 'ah ok, yeah the Tories are better off out of power so let's just drop all our principles and settle for whatever Labour give us from a centrist standpoint', then there would never be ANY progress towards anything we want. Because there would be no votes to compete for on that side of the spectrum. The assumption would simply be that Labour had done it, re-formed the line, rebuilt the broad church, and that they could just stand still. Otherwise you tell me, is there any evidence in the entirety of human history for a political party being more radical than the entirety of the electorate that votes for it? If not, then why on earth should people to the left of Labour move in for them now if they ever want to see change? It makes absolutely no sense.

 

An electoral landslide as we're about to see will make them very confident that they have the right of where they are, and they will be reluctant to deviate from what has delivered it - which at this point is doing absolutely nothing while the Tories hang themselves. I predict this next Labour government will be marked in particular for being timid, avoidant of rocking the boat.

 

As for what motivates them, power. It can only be power because they're not about to achieve anything besides it based on what has been said so far.

 

Again, maybe all of this changes in the manifesto - or when they're in power. We will see. But I will be watching closely, and believe me I'll be revisiting these themes as we go through that electoral cycle. Hopefully I'll be saying "Damn this is great to see, all this positive change that is really transformative of people's lives". I doubt it, but I do hope for it.

[Renton 17783]

9 hours ago, Rayvin said:

 

I am massively cynical of them now, yes. And Starmer broke pledges he made that I believed in at the time of voting for him, so naturally I am particularly cynical of him. Background be damned. I keep saying this next point but it doesn't seem to ever go in - if everyone to the left of you just went 'ah ok, yeah the Tories are better off out of power so let's just drop all our principles and settle for whatever Labour give us from a centrist standpoint', then there would never be ANY progress towards anything we want. Because there would be no votes to compete for on that side of the spectrum. The assumption would simply be that Labour had done it, re-formed the line, rebuilt the broad church, and that they could just stand still. Otherwise you tell me, is there any evidence in the entirety of human history for a political party being more radical than the entirety of the electorate that votes for it? If not, then why on earth should people to the left of Labour move in for them now if they ever want to see change? It makes absolutely no sense.

 

An electoral landslide as we're about to see will make them very confident that they have the right of where they are, and they will be reluctant to deviate from what has delivered it - which at this point is doing absolutely nothing while the Tories hang themselves. I predict this next Labour government will be marked in particular for being timid, avoidant of rocking the boat.

 

As for what motivates them, power. It can only be power because they're not about to achieve anything besides it based on what has been said so far.

 

Again, maybe all of this changes in the manifesto - or when they're in power. We will see. But I will be watching closely, and believe me I'll be revisiting these themes as we go through that electoral cycle. Hopefully I'll be saying "Damn this is great to see, all this positive change that is really transformative of people's lives". I doubt it, but I do hope for it.

 

Fair enough, I see your point but I do think you owe them the benefit of the doubt. Judge them on their actions after they are in a position to enact those actions, not before in some imagined future reality.

UK politics with FPTP is always about compromise. That's democracy Dennis.

 

 

[Alex 30414]

That’s AV iirc 

[Renton 17783]

3 minutes ago, Alex said:

That’s AV iirc 

Pedant, it's the principle, innit. If the hut had adopted PR, it would be painted in stripes. 

[Rayvin 4964]

7 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Fair enough, I see your point but I do think you owe them the benefit of the doubt. Judge them on their actions after they are in a position to enact those actions, not before in some imagined future reality.

UK politics with FPTP is always about compromise. That's democracy Dennis.

 

 

 

I would argue though that since he broke all his pledges, I don't owe him anything. I voted for him to be leader in good faith based on those pledges. I know you are prepared to look past that, but I can't. He needs to earn back my trust and faith - and I'm open to him doing that tbh, but it's not just being handed over.

[NJS 3978]

Sometimes I think Starmer may be decent and is managed by more cuntish people but that view is just becoming harder to maintain. 

 

This talking to the prick from the Sun and indulging in flag fucking over this Nike row is the latest example. 

[Renton 17783]

7 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I would argue though that since he broke all his pledges, I don't owe him anything. I voted for him to be leader in good faith based on those pledges. I know you are prepared to look past that, but I can't. He needs to earn back my trust and faith - and I'm open to him doing that tbh, but it's not just being handed over.

 

Out of interest, will you be watching and enjoying the GE? Having a cheer at each Portillo moment? I certainly will. Make no bones about it, getting rid of the tories, maybe for a generation or even forever, means more to me than getting the current Labour party elected. Once it happens, we can take it from there. 

[Renton 17783]

Just now, NJS said:

Sometimes I think Starmer may be decent and is managed by more cuntish people but that view is just becoming harder to maintain. 

 

This talking to the prick from the Sun and indulging in flag fucking over this Nike row is the latest example. 

 

If that is not an example of PR management I don't know what is. I couldn't give a shit about the England flag either way and I bet Starmer doesn't either. You'd rather he came out and said that and lose voters though I assume. (He can't avoid the subject either because the tory media will inevitably ask). 

[Rayvin 4964]

3 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Out of interest, will you be watching and enjoying the GE? Having a cheer at each Portillo moment? I certainly will. Make no bones about it, getting rid of the tories, maybe for a generation or even forever, means more to me than getting the current Labour party elected. Once it happens, we can take it from there. 

 

I don't know tbh. Maybe a bit but I pay so little attention now that I imagine it might just swapping a couple of texts with friends afterwards, not watching it as it happens. The Tories won, they pulled everything to the right, got everyone to accept Brexit, and have ruined the country. Now we're just rearranging deckchairs on the titanic. It's hard to celebrate it even if they do get wiped out.