Politics

[Dr Gloom 20234]

You can absolutely enjoy making and spending money and still have a social conscience by way. I groan when people accuse me of being a champagne socialist like it makes you a hypocrite. What's worse - that or being a rich, selfish Tory twat? I'd be happy to pay higher taxes to help put more money back into the state.

[NJS 4039]

You can absolutely enjoy making and spending money and still have a social conscience by way. I groan when people accuse me of being a champagne socialist like it makes you a hypocrite. What's worse - that or being a rich, selfish Tory twat? I'd be happy to pay higher taxes to help put more money back into the state.

Every time Billy Bragg writes for the Guardian, the first comment will tell him to fuck off back to his Dorset mansion because obviously only if he lived in a council flat in Barking would his views be worth reading.

[Renton 18301]

You can absolutely enjoy making and spending money and still have a social conscience by way. I groan when people accuse me of being a champagne socialist like it makes you a hypocrite. What's worse - that or being a rich, selfish Tory twat? I'd be happy to pay higher taxes to help put more money back into the state.

Supporting higher tax spend and universal high quality health care and education is one thing, but, Corbyn, really?

 

I take a different viewpoint personally, I support those things but fully accept that I am still a hypocrite on many issues. I'd certainly like more money, for instance, even though I have more than many.

 

The thing is though, Corbyn isn't a hypocrite, which i guess you can respect him for. But how many people really share his vision of the future? A world of veganism, abstinence, and manhole spotting? He's idealistically consistent to an extent that makes him dangerous. Or boring, anyway.

[Renton 18301]

Every time Billy Bragg writes for the Guardian, the first comment will tell him to fuck off back to his Dorset mansion because obviously only if he lived in a council flat in Barking would his views be worth reading.

Bob Crow shows you can't win on that score.

[Dr Gloom 20234]

Supporting higher tax spend and universal high quality health care and education is one thing, but, Corbyn, really?

 

I take a different viewpoint personally, I support those things but fully accept that I am still a hypocrite on many issues. I'd certainly like more money, for instance, even though I have more than many.

 

The thing is though, Corbyn isn't a hypocrite, which i guess you can respect him for. But how many people really share his vision of the future? A world of veganism, abstinence, and manhole spotting? He's idealistically consistent to an extent that makes him dangerous. Or boring, anyway.

The least I thought you could say about him was he's principled, but you can't even say that after the Brexit fiasco when he clearly didn't campaign for what he believed in. No different from the rest on that score

[Dr Gloom 20234]

Every time Billy Bragg writes for the Guardian, the first comment will tell him to fuck off back to his Dorset mansion because obviously only if he lived in a council flat in Barking would his views be worth reading.

Probably penned by some media Islington twat

[NJS 4039]

Supporting higher tax spend and universal high quality health care and education is one thing, but, Corbyn, really?

 

I take a different viewpoint personally, I support those things but fully accept that I am still a hypocrite on many issues. I'd certainly like more money, for instance, even though I have more than many.

 

The thing is though, Corbyn isn't a hypocrite, which i guess you can respect him for. But how many people really share his vision of the future? A world of veganism, abstinence, and manhole spotting? He's idealistically consistent to an extent that makes him dangerous. Or boring, anyway.

I don't see what his personal life has to do with his appeal - most PMs have something "dodgy" about them which have been a lot worse than nerdy hobbies.

 

His policies on housing, education, state investment and worker stakeholding are all excellent and way beyond the "semi decent" goals of other left leaning parties past and present.

Edited September 21, 2016 by NJS

[Renton 18301]

I don't see what his personal life has to do with his appeal - most PMs have something "dodgy" about them which have been a lot worse than nerdy hobbies.

 

His policies on housing, education, state investment and worker stakeholding are all excellent and way beyond the "semi decent" goals of other left leaning parties past and present.

Perhaps we have come full circle again but I'd point out two things there. Firstly, I'm not completely sure all those targets are achievable in the globalised world we live in. But secondly and much more importantly, the electorate has no appetite for them, and then we get back to the fact that being a noble opposition is completely futile. An example is his views on unilateral disarmament or the Falklands. You may agree with him here (I don't fwiw) but they're not policies the electorate will ever go for. A realist would know this and adjust policy accordingly. Corbyn won't and that's part of the reason labour faces annihilation in 2020. Edited September 21, 2016 by Renton

[ewerk 27130]

You been talking to yourself again?

Sometimes it's the only way I can get any decent conversation.

[NJS 4039]

Perhaps we have come full circle again but I'd point out two things there. Firstly, I'm not completely sure all those targets are achievable in the globalised world we live in. But secondly and much more importantly, the electorate has no appetite for them, and then we get back to the fact that being a noble opposition is completely futile. An example is his views on unilateral disarmament or the Falklands. You may agree with him here (I don't fwiw) but they're not policies the electorate will ever go for. A realist would know this and adjust policy accordingly. Corbyn won't and that's part of the reason labour faces annihilation in 2020.

There's a lot of appetite for nationalisation and support of the NHS and I think anyone who doesn't support more social housing is beyond even centrist thinking.

 

There are "unpalatable" policies but I think a reasoned debate about trident is long overdue and blind patriotism which feeds most views should be challenged. It won't change the older generation pov but I think younger people would be more amenable.

 

Changing your principles and policies to suit focus groups is exactly what led to NL doing nowt for the working class.

[ewerk 27130]

Changing your principles and policies to suit focus groups is exactly what led to NL doing nowt for the working class.

 

Well of course, apart from the minimum wage, taking 600,000 children out of poverty, taking 1,000,000 pensioners out of poverty, widening the scope of gift aid, improving the NHS, increasing child benefit, increasing workers' paid holidays, introducing child tax credits and doubling the number of apprenticeships.

 

But apart from that...

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3323]

Well of course, apart from the minimum wage, taking 600,000 children out of poverty, taking 1,000,000 pensioners out of poverty, widening the scope of gift aid, improving the NHS, increasing child benefit, increasing workers' paid holidays, introducing child tax credits and doubling the number of apprenticeships.

 

But apart from that...

 

 

Not sure about that bit but willing to be proved wrong. New Labour did very well, unfortunately their fuck ups, while few in number, were ball breakingly monumental.

[ewerk 27130]

With the NHS they had increased funding, decreasing waiting times, increased user satisfaction.

 

Yes, they made mistakes with the NHS, they made lots of mistakes elsewhere but when you're in power for 13 years you're going to fuck up many times. You cannot expect a perfect government. They will introduce bad policies and make bad decisions but overall their time in power was much, much better than it would have been under a Tory government. The last six years have certainly shown that.

[NJS 4039]

Well of course, apart from the minimum wage, taking 600,000 children out of poverty, taking 1,000,000 pensioners out of poverty, widening the scope of gift aid, improving the NHS, increasing child benefit, increasing workers' paid holidays, introducing child tax credits and doubling the number of apprenticeships.

 

But apart from that...

Allowed the demonisation of benefit claimants.

Didn't reverse union reforms which may have prevented the explosion of zero hour contracts.

Used PFI to fund the NHS crippling trusts and opening the door to privatisation.

No social housing policy which expanded the prison of renting and the debt mountain.

Revelled in immigration increase with no thought for how it would affect their core voters.

Bottled social reforms and decreased privacy rights.

Embraced the city and didn't even attempt to rebalanced the economy.

Worshipped "wealth creators" like Branson and Green.

[NJS 4039]

With the NHS they had increased funding, decreasing waiting times, increased user satisfaction.

 

Yes, they made mistakes with the NHS, they made lots of mistakes elsewhere but when you're in power for 13 years you're going to fuck up many times. You cannot expect a perfect government. They will introduce bad policies and make bad decisions but overall their time in power was much, much better than it would have been under a Tory government. The last six years have certainly shown that.

Apart from the minimum wage there isn't one NL policy that John Major wouldn't have happily endorsed.

[Christmas Tree 4005]

There's a lot of appetite for nationalisation and support of the NHS and I think anyone who doesn't support more social housing is beyond even centrist thinking.

 

There are "unpalatable" policies but I think a reasoned debate about trident is long overdue and blind patriotism which feeds most views should be challenged. It won't change the older generation pov but I think younger people would be more amenable.

 

Changing your principles and policies to suit focus groups is exactly what led to NL doing nowt for the working class.

Thing is you could ask many Tory voters and they would support the NHS and more social housing. Corbyn sounded fresh when he first hit the scene but now he just comes across like a stuck robot. He has no appeal amongst the electorate he would need to win over.

 

The masses were never going to vote for him before the split, even less so now regardless of what sticking plaster is put on. Deselections will only split the local vote with dethroned MP's standing against momentums chosen.

 

It really is over now. Boundary changes and a resurgent UKIP could lead to Tory majority's unseen before. No coming back from that.

[ewerk 27130]

Allowed the demonisation of benefit claimants.

Didn't reverse union reforms which may have prevented the explosion of zero hour contracts.

Used PFI to fund the NHS crippling trusts and opening the door to privatisation.

No social housing policy which expanded the prison of renting and the debt mountain.

Revelled in immigration increase with no thought for how it would affect their core voters.

Bottled social reforms and decreased privacy rights.

Embraced the city and didn't even attempt to rebalanced the economy.

Worshipped "wealth creators" like Branson and Green.

 

As I said above, they aren't perfect. If you're trying to get elected then sometimes you do have to bend your principles. That's the game, like it or not. Corbyn won't play the game and that is why he'll never get to implement a single one of his policies.

[Christmas Tree 4005]

With the NHS they had increased funding, decreasing waiting times, increased user satisfaction.

 

Yes, they made mistakes with the NHS, they made lots of mistakes elsewhere but when you're in power for 13 years you're going to fuck up many times. You cannot expect a perfect government. They will introduce bad policies and make bad decisions but overall their time in power was much, much better than it would have been under a Tory government. The last six years have certainly shown that.

They increased funding by crippling the NHS with decades of PFI debt and reduced waiting times by introducing more and more private sector into the NHS.

[ewerk 27130]

Apart from the minimum wage there isn't one NL policy that John Major wouldn't have happily endorsed.

 

Aye but what would have actually managed to get through a Tory controlled HoC?

[ewerk 27130]

They increased funding by crippling the NHS with decades of PFI debt and reduced waiting times by introducing more and more private sector into the NHS.

 

PFI was a mistake. One partially caused by years of Tory underfunding in the NHS but a mistake all the same.

[Christmas Tree 4005]

PFI was a mistake. One partially caused by years of Tory underfunding in the NHS but a mistake all the same.

PFI was one of many many mistakes that cost / is costing the country dearly. This has always been my view of Labour, the get elected, fuck the country up and the Tories have to spend years trying to sort the mess out.

 

It's a bit like Nurses carrying out operations and then the surgeons have to come rushing in to save what they can.

 

Good intentions but too little intelligence. (No offence intended to nurses)

Edited September 21, 2016 by Christmas Tree

[Dr Gloom 20234]

New Labour weren't perfect and will forever be remembered for Iraq. But they're preferable to the utter twats running the country at the moment. Agree with Ewerk about Corbyn - he's a hopeless cause because he doesn't have a pragmatic bone in his body. His best hope is he has an impact on the debate and future labour governments better reflect the range of views among the members. Worst case, and probably more likely, is a split in the party.

 

A progressive coalition of left of centre parties could form a government in future though - politics is swings and roundabouts and the Tories won't have it all their own way forever

[ewerk 27130]

PFI was one of many many mistakes that cost / is costing the country dearly. This has always been my view of Labour, the get elected, fuck the country up and the Tories have to spend years trying to sort the mess out.

 

It's a bit like Nurses carrying out operations and then the surgeons have to come rushing in to save what they can.

 

Good intentions but too little intelligence. (No offence intended to nurses)

 

Because the NHS was working just fine before Labour came along?

[Christmas Tree 4005]

Because the NHS was working just fine before Labour came along?

The NHS will always be a basket case. It will never have enough money to cope with ageing population, drug costs, equipment etc. An extra billion here or there makes little difference.

 

There are probably 3 options.

 

1. Some government sets up and raises a separate tax that is just for the NHS. People always say they are prepared to pay more taxes but historically it's never an election winner.

 

2. Privatisation is ramped up.

 

3. It continues to trundle along chasing its tale.

 

Be interesting if one of you money brains would take a stab at what separate tax rate would be required to fund it. Extra penny, tuppence?

[Renton 18301]

Was PFI really a mistake, or is it yet another case of repeat a lie enough it becomes the truth. PFI buildings have utterly transformed the trust I work for. Perhaps people would rather they were still treated in ramshackle cold, damp Victorian buildings but I know I wouldn't.

 

Let's put it into perspective, PFI repayments account for less than 2% of the NHS budget. How does that type of repayment compare with most people's mortgage? It's true that it is a problem for some trusts but that was individual bad management. It's an utter nonsense to blame PFI debt for the demise of the NHS though. People have shirt memories on what the NHS of the 80s was like.