The official EU in/out thread.

[Park Life 71]

This new back tax or whatever it is... Pisstake?

 

Is it time to say enough is enough...You snail munching, mayo on chips snorting...Bratwurst gobbling fucks!

[Rob W 0]

Fine as long as you can tell me where the hell we're goingto putthe 4 million UK OAP's currently living in Europe when they are returned to sender.....................

[Kid Dynamite 6088]

I saw a poll in the independent the other day

 

Something along the lines of:

 

'Do you agree Brits should be allowed to live anywhere in the EU?'

 

yes 70% no % 30%

 

Do you agree anyone in the EU should be able to live in Britain'

 

yes 35% no 65%

[JJ 0]

The thing that annoys me the most is immigration isn't the problem at all in this debate. Immigrants are net contributors to the UK. But unfortunately, for those who want to see an Out vote they feel the need to appeal to the lowest common denominator, so they need to focus on Johnny Foreigner.

 

They should be focusing on the bureaucratic and undemocratic problems with the system. Unfortunately, the UK media doesn't want to talk about the undemocratic side of it due to their desire to protect the House of Lords from any potential reform.

 

And the In argument is pretty weakly put forward too, centered around rhetoric instead of the benefits of being part of the European Union.

 

Overall I'm not exactly sure what I'd vote in a referendum. But I know the debate will not be centered around what actually matters.

[The Fish 9234]

I saw a poll in the independent the other day

 

Something along the lines of:

 

'Do you agree Brits should be allowed to live anywhere in the EU?'

 

yes 70% no % 30%

 

Do you agree anyone in the EU should be able to live in Britain'

 

yes 35% no 65%

 

Yeah, I saw that too.

 

Typical selfish bellendery

[The Fish 9234]

The thing that annoys me the most is immigration isn't the problem at all in this debate. Immigrants are net contributors to the UK. But unfortunately, for those who want to see an Out vote they feel the need to appeal to the lowest common denominator, so they need to focus on Johnny Foreigner.

 

They should be focusing on the bureaucratic and undemocratic problems with the system. Unfortunately, the UK media doesn't want to talk about the undemocratic side of it due to their desire to protect the House of Lords from any potential reform.

 

And the In argument is pretty weakly put forward too, centered around rhetoric instead of the benefits of being part of the European Union.

 

Overall I'm not exactly sure what I'd vote in a referendum. But I know the debate will not be centered around what actually matters.

 

Easy to scare than to educate the ill-informed.

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3281]

I am of the opinion that whatever Farage believes is a good idea must be shit.

[JJ 0]

I am of the opinion that whatever Farage believes is a good idea must be shit.

 

It is one of life's simple philosophies that is unlikely to fail.

[PaddockLad 14910]

I am of the opinion that whatever Farage believes is a good idea must be shit.

 

It is one of life's simple philosophies that is unlikely to fail.

Agreed

 

Whether we stay in or out will be decided by Farage's old mates in the square mile. Cameron and anyone else will do as they say. To be fair Salmon gave them an almighty scare but the thing is you can't vote the governor of the Bank of England out, nor the head of the fed reserve. Politicians do as these types say generally.

[Rayvin 4970]

I still think the problem is that the EU is a halfway house of a political system. Either fully federalise Europe or wind things back, the current status quo doesn't function correctly - as could be seen by the shambolic response to the economic crisis. A fully empowered EU central bank and a universal single currency could have headed off the worst of that for a lot of countries.

 

My personal view is that we'll become utterly irrelevant without Europe, making trading alliances more difficult, and meaning greater acceptance of the Chinese buying up all of our businesses. The EU, as a federation, would be a global power on par with, and possibly in excess of, the United States. GDP, population, even military capability, would be stronger than the US - except with European liberal values.

 

Failure to do this, in my opinion, will lead to the rise of the BRICs economies and the continued downfall of Western civilisation. Of course, actually doing it might well bring about a return to fascism for all I know, it would certainly be a very European response...

 

There you go, nothing like a bit of scaremongering on a Saturday morning.

 

I'd vote in and to federalise though.

[Park Life 71]

I still think the problem is that the EU is a halfway house of a political system. Either fully federalise Europe or wind things back, the current status quo doesn't function correctly - as could be seen by the shambolic response to the economic crisis. A fully empowered EU central bank and a universal single currency could have headed off the worst of that for a lot of countries.

 

My personal view is that we'll become utterly irrelevant without Europe, making trading alliances more difficult, and meaning greater acceptance of the Chinese buying up all of our businesses. The EU, as a federation, would be a global power on par with, and possibly in excess of, the United States. GDP, population, even military capability, would be stronger than the US - except with European liberal values.

 

Failure to do this, in my opinion, will lead to the rise of the BRICs economies and the continued downfall of Western civilisation. Of course, actually doing it might well bring about a return to fascism for all I know, it would certainly be a very European response...

 

There you go, nothing like a bit of scaremongering on a Saturday morning.

 

I'd vote in and to federalise though.

The crisis was mostly caused by the fact that half the countries in the currency union shouldn't really have been in it and there was too wide a gap creating a two tier EU. The EU went ahead with it anyway.

 

I don't believe greater federal power will do anything but take away the rights and busieness initiative of individual member countries...Will Germany stop its covert state funding (breaking its own EU sponsored rules) of big business?..Will Italy actually comply with anything ever? Greater federalisation will lead to a thicker and more expensive administration making rules that most countries aren't following anyway...

 

The EU exports nearly 3 times more to us (especially Germany) than we do to it....So I don't see economic isolation coming anytime soon wether we are in or out.

 

Of course out of the EU we'd be free to cut our own deals with the BRICS something we're not allowed to do now.

 

Apart from having everything wrong your post wasn't too bad.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Park Life

[Rayvin 4970]

Erm, my point in the economic crisis was around the fact that a central bank with real power could have devalued the currency across the board and prevented certain countries from struggling. Of course they couldn't as things stand because too many countries, like Germany, wouldn't have condoned doing so. If the bank had the same authority as the Bank of England though, it could have done it. Of course it wasn't possible in the current state of affairs, because the level of political unity required to pull it off just isn't there - as such, it's a halfway house. Much as I said.

 

And by federal, I mean the US standard - as in Europe is a country made up of states and identifies as such. It'd take time, but that has to be the end goal for the Union. What we have now is held back by petty national issues. I fully agree that there'd be a lack of transparency, corruption and high levels of administration and bureaucracy, but how is that different to anywhere in the world currently?

 

You seem to think that by being separate, we will have greater autonomy - laughable. Greater autonomy to sign away our corporations to foreign powers. Politics isn't where the power is, and all we'd be getting is some faux political independence. Economics is where the power is, and the EU would give us a much better platform for surviving in the modern world than just Britain - a country trying to go it alone on the basis of historical nostalgia. Without it, we'd be even more beholden to the whims of our trading partners than we already are.

[Park Life 71]

Fine as long as you can tell me where the hell we're goingto putthe 4 million UK OAP's currently living in Europe when they are returned to sender.....................

Spanish economy would take a bit hit if they sent the Brits back.

[Park Life 71]

Erm, my point in the economic crisis was around the fact that a central bank with real power could have devalued the currency across the board and prevented certain countries from struggling. Of course they couldn't as things stand because too many countries, like Germany, wouldn't have condoned doing so. If the bank had the same authority as the Bank of England though, it could have done it. Of course it wasn't possible in the current state of affairs, because the level of political unity required to pull it off just isn't there - as such, it's a halfway house. Much as I said.

 

And by federal, I mean the US standard - as in Europe is a country made up of states and identifies as such. It'd take time, but that has to be the end goal for the Union. What we have now is held back by petty national issues. I fully agree that there'd be a lack of transparency, corruption and high levels of administration and bureaucracy, but how is that different to anywhere in the world currently?

 

You seem to think that by being separate, we will have greater autonomy - laughable. Greater autonomy to sign away our corporations to foreign powers. Politics isn't where the power is, and all we'd be getting is some faux political independence. Economics is where the power is, and the EU would give us a much better platform for surviving in the modern world than just Britain - a country trying to go it alone on the basis of historical nostalgia. Without it, we'd be even more beholden to the whims of our trading partners than we already are.

Germany doesn't want to devalue the euro so it will never happen.

 

UK economic growth is way ahead of the EU average hence the demand for more payments. Half the EU economies are laughable banana republics...France is practically bankcrupt and Italy has been for a couple of decades...Take a look at EU debt as a signpost for the future. America has the biggest debt on the planet running in the big trillions.

 

We should stay in the EU only if federalism is rolled back, costs are reduced and we keep the good things ie free trade and the movement of peoples.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Park Life

[Rayvin 4970]

Germany doesn't want to devalue the euro so it will never happen.

 

UK economic growth is way ahead of the EU average hence the demand for more payments. Half the EU economies are laughable banana republics...France is practically bankcrupt and Italy has been for a couple of decades...Take a look at EU debt as a signpost for the future. America has the biggest debt on the planet running in the big trillions.

 

We should stay in the EU only if federalism is rolled back, costs are reduced and we keep the good things ie free trade and the movement of peoples.

 

I guess we'll agree to disagree on this one. My main concern if we go it alone, is that we'll see something akin to the relationship that Tesco has with it's smaller suppliers - the small guys have no negotiating power, and are steamrollered every time. That will be Britain when faced, in 10-20 years time, with countries like China, India, possibly Brazil and Russia. It arguably already is in some of the deals that go on.

 

I agree that it's unlikely to federalise without external pressure (in reference to your comment about Germany), but I think that pressure is coming, certainly based on what we're starting to see in the Ukraine. If we're in it should this happen, then we're better off than being outside of it. Plus Britain actually makes it much, much stronger - when we aren't squabbling on the sidelines about immigrants.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Rayvin

[Park Life 71]

 

I guess we'll agree to disagree on this one. My main concern if we go it alone, is that we'll see something akin to the relationship that Tesco has with it's smaller suppliers - the small guys have no negotiating power, and are steamrollered every time. That will be Britain when faced, in 10-20 years time, with countries like China, India, possibly Brazil and Russia. It arguably already is in some of the deals that go on.

 

I agree that it's unlikely to federalise without external pressure (in reference to your comment about Germany), but I think that pressure is coming, certainly based on what we're starting to see in the Ukraine. If we're in it should this happen, then we're better off than being outside of it. Plus Britain actually makes it much, much stronger - when we aren't squabbling on the sidelines about immigrants.

By every conceivable measure the whole EU bar Germany has suffered economically some catastrophically since the introduction of the euro and the artificial constraints applied by the ECB. I really don't see what MORE federalisation and centralisation will do to improve things.

[Rayvin 4970]

As I said, it's because it's caught between two systems at present. My original post said we either need more federalism, or less - I do acknowledge that what we have isn't working.

[trophyshy 6443]

Good point, well made.

[Park Life 71]

Cmeron pretending he can do something about the free movement of peoples in the EU.....Ukip fear amok.

[Rob W 0]

and the popular press - run mainly by foreigners - stoking up the heat.,............................

[JJ 0]

Nicola Sturgeon has planted the seeds for constitutional crisis and a second independence referendum today if Scotland votes to stay in but are dragged out by the larger electorate. She suggested Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland should have a veto to the result if they as nations vote to stay in, even if the overall result is an Out vote.

 

It's a preposterous claim by Sturgeon to be honest about the nation veto, but it's obvious what she's doing it for. Cameron answered the question today at PMQ's that it is a UK wide referendum and majority wins, but in truth, he's absolutely right and couldn't say anything else.

 

The SNP are going to use this as an excuse to hold another referendum. I obviously if it were to happen would vote Yes, but they as a party (which I don't support) have to be careful they don't become an absolute one policy party going forward and show some patience. I knew these seeds would be planted, but I'm surprised it's been planted just 6 weeks after our referendum.

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3281]

Nicola Sturgeon has planted the seeds for constitutional crisis and a second independence referendum today if Scotland votes to stay in but are dragged out by the larger electorate. She suggested Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland should have a veto to the result if they as nations vote to stay in, even if the overall result is an Out vote.

 

It's a preposterous claim by Sturgeon to be honest about the nation veto, but it's obvious what she's doing it for. Cameron answered the question today at PMQ's that it is a UK wide referendum and majority wins, but in truth, he's absolutely right and couldn't say anything else.

 

The SNP are going to use this as an excuse to hold another referendum. I obviously if it were to happen would vote Yes, but they as a party (which I don't support) have to be careful they don't become an absolute one policy party going forward and show some patience. I knew these seeds would be planted, but I'm surprised it's been planted just 6 weeks after our referendum.

The reason for the quick move is the semi attempt to bring a referendum into law.

[Park Life 71]

Getting a bit bored with the Scots now.

[Dr Gloom 20158]

[JJ 0]

Getting a bit bored with the Scots now.

Nice. Reckon you should boot us out the Union and make us go it alone. That'll show us.