Rayvin

Possible ignorance here, but before the Tories started kicking off about this particular issue I assume it was already a thing. Like it didn't just start happening suddenly once the immediate devastation of Brexit was complete. So before Rwanda and so on, what were we doing about it? And is it actually an issue, or just a more Tory nonsense?

Agree here, and I'm open to the reality that it could be the latter. Mind you, we should look cautiously at the US situation too - it worked for Biden on that occasion but he seems to be right back against Trump again now, with the latter ahead in the polls. My personal belief is that you do need to come up with a way to 'win' at some point, and that involves actually having a vision for where the country needs to go. Britain is still stuck in a slow motion car crash, and while Labour will at least hit the brakes, it's not about to start trying to turn the car around. We're going to continue off the cliff until someone with some ideas comes along.

Interesting article from the Guardian here on perceptions of Labour beyond just the polling. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/apr/22/labour-tories-election-polls-analysis Starmer's Labour are polling lower than Milliband and Corbyn on: - Keeping Promises - Understanding the problems the country faces And are variable (the same? only slightly better?) than both on - Good team of leaders - Fit to govern The Tories have nosedived on every metric. So as I guess we all know, this just confirms that Labour is winning by default, not because they are seen as having anything to offer.

I am, she's not. That offer would have been a godsend tbh, but frankly it appeared out of nowhere and was shot down almost as quick, so I didn't exactly have time to get my hopes up. I'm not really trying to justify my position solely on that anyway as I did feel very strongly about this anyway. It's just extra context.

As I've said before, if everyone voted Labour despite misgivings and unhappiness with certain policies, then Labour would never be motivated to change the way they operate. They would simply stay where they are. Withholding my vote is the only way I can demonstrate to Starmer that his lies were unacceptable, and that he cannot take me for granted. So it's not even about thinking that we can just pop back into the EU at this point, it's that Labour are refusing to tell the truth on how damaging this has been, and that we need to walk it back. Until they do that, I won't vote for them - with the exception of if they push for voting reform. I can justify that vote to myself on the basis that it saves us from this binary nonsense which only serves to entrench stupid policies like Brexit. I'm not expecting I am noticed, or that I achieve anything with this. I simply can't not do it. It would be an erosion of my sense of self, and the values that are important to me. All for what? A vote that is meaningless for a party that won't notice either way, and will win without me. I'm better off preserving my sense of self since at least that is an impact I can feel. If you need this to make more sense in a pragmatic way than it does, my partner is European and we are struggling to find a way for her to be here, meaning that much of my life involves being separated from someone I care about. Now, I would have taken this stance anyway I like to think, but that specific reality does rather underline it. Labour have nothing to offer me that will make that any better. They just continue to spit in my face to placate fucking morons. I have no respect for that, and I won't vote for what I don't respect.

Honestly I do feel like you think I'm a simpleton in all of this and that I think we can just flick a switch and go back to how things were. I reckon we're 20 or 30 years off rejoining if we ever do. That's not going to change my voting choices though. This country is beyond saving until we go back to it, and so I won't pretend that any meaningful change can come about otherwise. You have faith that Labour can rearrange some deckchairs as the ship sinks and that this will change something for the better, but I don't. So I would argue that there is simply nothing for me to vote for that I believe in. Not after all of Labour's lies and all the principles they've trampled to win. Labour is getting nothing from me until they demonstrate that they are worth me giving them my vote on the basis of the things I care about. They consistently give me the finger with everything they say on this, so that's what I'm giving them back.

My point is that someone needs to be flying the flag for rejoining and holding back their vote on this basis. No issue is as important to me as this one, and I won't endorse any party that doesn't support rejoining. Even if rejoining took years, I'd vote for a party with the balls to tell the truth on the need to go back. My plan is to spoil my ballot remember, I don't need any of them to endorse my view. My view is meaningless to them, but while that remains the case, they are meaningless to me.

I resigned party membership once Corbyn's Labour took a second referendum off their manifesto, and only went back when they took it forward as a policy again in the 2019 election. I was fucking consistent on this believe it or not.

Was having a fairly shit morning, logged in here, read this and had my first proper laugh of the day. Cheers mate

Unless rejoining the EU or wanting voting reform are now considered to be left wing policies, I'm probably more a radical centrist at this point as opposed to anything else. And I'm still not voting Labour, not that they need me to.

That does make her seem a tad erratic, though I appreciate the Mirror is the Mirror. I like Stavely though, she's been the bridge between club and owners. I hope she's still playing some sort of a role.

So is Cameron saying today that Israel are going to escalate with Iran? This is going stunningly badly for everyone involved tbh. A sobering reminder of what the breakdown of interdependency means for the world. Still, I suppose BAE and Lockheed are having a field day.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/04/israel-us-gaza-joe-biden-benjamin-netanyahu-phone-call Biden called for a ceasefire at 30k it turns out. Israel wiping out Hamas was never remotely realistic unless they were going to commit a full on genocide through Gaza, so I want to just flag this post back up. The whole world turning around now and saying a ceasefire has to be reached is just stomach turning. The US knew, we knew, everyone fucking knew that Israel weren't going to fucking succeed. Why did we have to let them kill 30k+ people? Because apparently we needed to let Israel kill a sufficient number of innocents so as to be somewhat 'appeased'. The world let Israel collect a blood debt on Palestinian lives. It is beyond sickening how the world has handled this.

A few years ago maybe. I'm not that young anymore tbf, and I'm now spent as a force for 'good'. I'm too cynical and jaded, and I can't see how any of it can ever improve in reality. The ship sailed and I lost hope when it did. I'm now just bitter, as per my previous post

Mind you, Labour are trying to paint me (us?) as the enemies... https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/apr/08/middle-class-lefties-wont-stop-labour-using-private-sector-to-cut-nhs-backlog-wes-streeting-says MIddle Class Lefties apparently are the enemy of NHS reform. Not fucking worthless, abject politicians like Wes Streeting.

Yeah I'll definitely be cheering that outcome. Though I doubt it'll be the end of him.

I'll enjoy it too on some level I'm sure. Every staunch Brexiteer that goes down will be celebrated. JRM would be a real scalp, I gather he's in trouble.

In fairness, none of my position is tactical or motivated by anything other than the fact that I am deeply pissed off and let down by politics in this country, and I am simply beyond being able to compromise on it any more on a personal level. I agree that we are aligned on basically everything. The difference I think just comes down to hope/optimism for the future. You have some.

Also not so much desperate to fail as desperate to see other people also sharing my views trying to hold them to account, which makes sense you would think in ensuring that I don't just give up on the whole thing? Granted Gaza and climate change aren't the sum total of my issues with Labour. I'd still vote for them despite those things if they were doing either of the two things that actually mattered. On Gaza we're just a pathetic nation with no actual leadership skills, doesn't matter who is in charge, it's going to be the same. On climate change, its the same. Baked into the national psyche at this point.

Just to clarify, I too want Labour to succeed. I just measure success in more than just winning this election. They have to actually also be good and useful in government.

Progressive young/urban voters turning away from Labour over Gaza and climate change apparently: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/apr/11/labour-may-fail-to-grab-target-seats-as-young-voters-turn-away-over-gaza-and-climate Could just be a scare article but some suggestion it could cost them some key seats here and there. Doubt it matters in the end but hopefully something that will remind Starmer that we're not all collectively a centre right hive mind. Sunder Katwala, the director of the non-partisan thinktank British Future, said: “This is a 2025 or 2028 challenge for Labour. There is a danger of taking your core vote for granted, and that danger will be very apparent after the election.”

I don't personally feel like I am but I suspect the same could be said for most of the Tory party I did have a civil conversation with an ethnonationalist recently and somehow resisted the urge to cancel him, so I'm going to use that single data point to claim that I could be worse

Do I come across as that woke to you guys

Yeah just to be clear then, I'm not saying that most of the British public are secret fascists. I'm saying that enough of them are stupid enough that they don't need to be in order to cause harm, and that this characteristic should be enough to keep the Tories around.

They still elected Johnson though, and he's certifiable. The sensible/boring British public voted for this complete fiasco we've had for the last 5 years. Clearly they didn't understand how mental their choice was going to be, but all that means is that they lack the critical thinking skills to understand the consequences of what they're voting for, meaning it could easily happen again. That's my point - the British public cannot be trusted not to make stupid voting decisions on the right hand side of the political spectrum.