Rayvin

Perfect excuse for Johnson to sack him while avoiding the uncomfortable revelations from Cummings..

Have pulled this back in here because the CV thread isn't the place for it really. See, I can understand that position to a point - but you do seem to be taking a lot of this personally. There's no endgame coming as far as I can tell, this is going to run on for quite some time yet (in my view, generations). And its worth noting that for leavers, this was a 40 year struggle. It's going to be the same the other way around now, I'm almost certain of it. So buckle in for the long term, especially if you're going to be this animated about it. As for false positions, I do fe

He didn't call anyone a think cunt tbf. He said this was a dumb fucking country - a view I fully share with him. And I'd say it to Gemmill's Mam's face, too. I know some sound Brexiteers myself. Unfortunately, all the ones I know are also politically ignorant. Doesn't make them bad people, but does mean that at least for the ones I know they've flung us into something that they didn't comprehend. Why is this getting to you so much anyway, what have you been reading/viewing lately that's got you so worked up about remainers. Who cares what we think, we lost, remember? Wh

I also doubt you'll find anyone here who thinks this place is anything other than an echo chamber tbh. And honestly I would prefer a bit more diversity of opinion myself, but I understand that the aggressive nature of the debate on here tends to put people off. So I mean honestly, not really going to disagree with what you've said But you have to understand that we've had these debates to death (I mean you know this, you've been in them) and I think the stage we're all at now is that we know our positions on this. You've come in with a stance wherein you've spent a few weeks tryi

This is never a good basis for the forming of an opinion. It's the same as when people claim they're note going to vote Labour because people keep calling them stupid. Like, I understand that no one likes to be called stupid, but that's a really idk... insecure way of coming to a political position. Also I mostly just wanted to share that image tbh, apologies if it offended

This is about where Quiff is atm, politically speaking

I mean, IMO on this you're wrong. Renton is exercising free speech to voice an opinion on a political event. The Capitol Hill insurrectionists forced their way into a government building to (ridiculously) attempt to force a coup d'etat. You'll be right once Renton storms Parliament How is it the same?

The problem with that statement though is it gives cover to the side that are worst by implying that both sides are the same. Yes, there is spin and dishonesty on all sides of most political arguments, but we're talking 90% on one side here. There's a reason all the professors, scientists and experts lined up on one side of the argument around Brexit - not because they all had vested interests in the outcomes, but because they spend their lives analysing data dispassionately and using it to form evidence based conclusions. Quite how we got to the point where these people's opinions on their sp

Well that sounds like something we can find agreement on at least. I've started focusing more on personal philosophy anyway in recent months.

I mean if Brexit isn't something you're bothered about then I don't think you even need to do any questioning. The issue is settled, you can just forget about it. I can't because it still actively fucks up my life I would obviously question the extent to which they ever 'had us by the balls' though, since we had the best deal in Europe while we were in there, and we had a leadership role in the direction it was moving in - but it's just pointless to worry about it now. In terms of investment, the Tories are spending considerably at the moment as they've observed that this is somet

I mean this is it though, yeah maybe it is undignified but I've essentially just given up now so it doesn't really bother me what anyone thinks. Brexit as a process has ended my politics, frankly. Lemme ask - what is it that you want, politically speaking?

I want to set out a bit of the 'how we got here' in terms of the disillusionment of Remainers - not with the intention necessarily of changing Quiff's view, but with the goal of demonstrating why I hold the view that I do. 1 - Farage and Johnson both claimed we would remain in the single market after Brexit. Johnson actually gave a speech the day after the vote claiming that nothing would change; he did this outside of his house as I recall, as the press swarmed him. He obviously had no idea what he was talking about (even at the time he looked shellshocked) but his vision of Brexi

I never understand that tolerance point mind. Have raised this before - who on the left ever said we were tolerant in an ideological sense? It's a deliberate misunderstanding of tolerance for cultural and sexual orientations, and is a necessary descriptive addition because the right are -intolerant- of those things. In terms of ideology though, If your view is stupid, it's getting called out with zero tolerance. What kind of snowflake would want anything other than that? All of this said, I don't think Quiff is a right winger; I think he's been redpilled somewhere down

Well yeah but I think to some extent that's what has/is happening. People in here sharing stories about Brexit being a fuck up is just for consumption within an echo chamber. It's nice to have validation that there are other people out there as frustrated by it as I am. I don't go out of my way to argue with Brexit voters, it's really a non-issue for me day to day other than that I still think it's fucking stupid. I mean I take the point though, I have tried to step back from a lot of it.

I'm trying to talk about politics less It's still not great really but lockdown ending and the return to socialising is helping me somewhat, as I'm sure it is everyone else. Is Pregablin over the counter? I'm considering medicating for it in truth.

I think respectfully disagreeing is only possible when everyone is arguing honestly. If someone is taking disingenuous or obviously poorly informed viewpoints, and treats facts that counter these views as personal attacks, then there's really no room for respectful disagreement. I would still, to this day, have a respectful conversation with a leave voter if they were prepared to engage on it properly. I would also contend that your average leave voter has more of an emotional attachment to leaving, rather than a rational one. Whereas you average remain voter is the other way aroun

I have to say mate, I'm further than I've ever been from caring about political unity or finding common ground with people on the other side of the debate in this country. I'm still fucking pissed about it. I don't see why I should be quiet about that just to make some leave voters feel like we're all unified. I have never felt less British than I do right now, and I'm struggling to see what in their 'vision of the country' I would even want to unify on. Live and let burn is pretty much where I am at the minute

So the moderate left and the centre right. All I'm saying is that if you're going through the exploration into this stuff through the online stuff - having been there myself - it's a gateway to some pretty fucking wild shit. And I think a lot of the people espousing it are dishonest actors. I can understand the desire for unity, but why should that come from our side?

But who cares about that? You're talking as if we all want to reconcile with these people and make them see the light or something. That ship fucking sailed mate, I don't care what they think anymore - I'm just going to slate them as a form of catharsis. This is what they won. It's about the only thing they won in fact - one continuous, merciless bout of ridicule that is regenerated every time something new and terrible about Brexit is revealed. Given the age of many of them, they won't hear the end of it until they're six feet under. As for this: You're bein

I've started to think that the battle over Brexit - leaving, the consequences of leaving, and the eventual rejoining - will be the politically defining issue for quite possibly multiple generations. All to prevent schism within the Tory party. A complete and utter waste of everyone's time.

Supports the notion of the progressive alliance, as the article notes. Seems like Labour voters played that very well indeed. So they are beatable, we just need to behave like fucking adults.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jun/16/keir-starmer-picks-stonger-together-slogan-used-by-hillary-clinton-to-rebrand Starmer using Clinton's campaign slogan as part of a rebrand. Don't think he understands how toxic she became in the culture war but we'll see I suppose. They need to do something, I suppose.

The lockdown and protective measures. It just feels to me like there's a shift in people's mentality on this based on some of the conversations I'm seeing/having. I think the view was that once we were vaccinated we were out of the woods, and yet it now looks like we'll probably lose a lot of the summer to this as well. I think we're fine where we are, mostly I am just concerned that if it transpires that we will need another proper lockdown, there'll be widespread public resistance to it. It's just anecdotal from my view mind, so who knows. Certainly frustration with Johnson seems

While Quiff is clearly on the wind up here, it is noteworthy that more and more 'reasonable' people are running out of patience with this now. I had my first vaccination yesterday which was something of a relief given that I seem to be really behind everyone else on that front (Scotland doesn't appear to let you force the issue, you just wait for an invite). Am looking forward to the second one so that I'll be as well defended as possible, but I'll go on wearing masks and so on as long as we're told to. Really don't see the point in taking risks given what a total mess this has bee

@Dr Gloom What is your view of GBNews and Andrew Neil's defection to it? How is it being received around the BBC? Is there concern?