Rayvin
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Posts
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Everything posted by Rayvin
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But I've asked several times now for you to clarify what you did mean and expressed repeatedly that I would happily apologise if I have indeed gotten you wrong. I think my assumption was fair enough but if I'm wrong then I'm wrong. Either way this is clearly causing consternation and while I am curious as to who you meant when you said NATO members don't care as much when the victims aren't white, I'm fine to just retract everything I said because honestly if not for the fact that I had spent all day arguing with people about that same line I doubt I would have picked you up on it at all. Sorry for getting you riled, my bad.
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Right but.. I didn't disagree with that part of your post. So wait, are we saying I'm to ignore that one line in your post, which I disagreed with, and agree with the rest of your post? I agree with the rest of your post. I don't agree with that single line. I don't see how this moves us any further forward since my issue was with that line and its implications, but I'm ready to be be corrected if I misinterpreted the line I have expressed disagreement with. I'm calm btw. But I do also tend to be very ready to debate on things. I mean let's flip it around, do you disagree with anything I said?
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The line was this one: "Again, maybe biased, but I think its a sad reality that killing Iraqi civilians in their cities is somewhat more palatable to NATO members, than the same in a white European city" NATO isn't doing shit about this so I'm not sure really who you could be referring to if not the people of the member countries. I mean NATO didn't act in Iraq and it's not acting here, so if your argument isn't about 'the people' of those countries, who do you mean? I have tried to take your argument charitably, that's why I twice made clear that some parts of my post weren't directed at what you were saying. I guess you can correct me here on my assumption if I'm wrong, and I'll apologise for not having seen your point clearly. I'm more than happy to do that.
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I don't know why this is so difficult for some people to comprehend tbh. If Ukraine had a large immigrant population made up of different ethnicities and we were seeing images of them dead and dying, we'd somehow feel less horror because they weren't white, appears to be the suggestion - just ludicrous.
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Where would we even run at this point tbf, don't have many bridges left to burn ourselves. Hopefully we never have to find out anyway.
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I didn't say you were. But you are questioning the legitimacy of any of us to say anything about this at all. The general argument you're making though is that we only care because they're white, and that we didn't care when people were dying in Iraq. And what I'm saying is that plenty of us did care then, and the strength of feeling has been such that it hasn't happened since. And that this in turn means that actually, it is ok for us to be legitimately fucking outraged by this. The whole argument for this whataboutery is that Russia should be able to do this because we did. I know you don't agree with that argument, I don't, so why even muddy the water? This is just wrong. It is heinous, and Russia should be condemned by literally everyone. And if we invaded Iraq again tomorrow, I'd say the same damn thing. Consistency is with the people condemning this unequivocably, not with those who are saying that this is ok because of Iraq. Those people are actually destroying their own position to condemn Iraq. And for the second time, I know that's not you - but your argument touches on theirs in places and I've been fighting against the (wider, illogical) position for two days now in my own circles. "How can you condemn Russia if you won't condemn Iraq?" "I condemn both - how can you condemn Iraq if you won't condemn Russia?" -silence-
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It's worth holding up for ridicule but I do want to underline that this is an absolutely pathetic response to the situation. Not blaming Wraith as such, I've seen far worse than this and raising awareness at least isn't a shameless self plug, but people have been sharing images of companies or businesses trying to capitalise on this, influencers too. "Me when I see the death toll in Ukraine" followed by a girl forcing herself to fake cry like it's a bit for a drama or something. People dressing up their kids in Ukraine/Russian flags and making them cuddle and asking why we can't all be like this. Fuck off the lot of you. This is real, people are dying, stop trying to profit off the back of it like it's a cultural event. Same for fucking celebrities IMO.
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Granted, by "us" and "we" I mean the majority of normal people who are watching on with horror. The same sorts of people who joined a million strong march through London to protest the Iraq war, I might add.
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Turkey now blocking Russian warships. It is starting to feel as if Putin will have to make Russia total pariahs to get this over the line. As for the notion: The Uk and the US have been criticised endlessly for decades following the Iraq war. Half of the country wants Tony Blair strung up as a war criminal. There is no way we will see another Iraq in our lifetimes because of how strong the criticism has been. The last time we got anywhere remotely close to it was Syria and our government was forced to back down due to public and political pressure - which consequently forced the US to back down too. So given that we have been so fiercely critical of our own war, why are we not in a position to condemn this one? We are in a position to, because we know it's wrong. It's not because they're white that the vast majority will be feeling compassion for them, it's because they're next door neighbours, and because we've seen the atrocities that these stupid imperialistic wars lead to. Russia has looked at Iraq and used it as a justification - we are looking at Iraq and using it reason to oppose this.
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Can you imagine if it was here? I'd pick up a rifle too. I guess all of us would.
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The article I think is intended to persuade left wing people who have been dismissive of the war specifically because of the 'far right' components within Ukraine, that they don't justify an invasion by Russia. So he's on our side of this IMO. That said, I find it stunning that anyone on the left thinks this could possibly be deserved. Or necessary. This is why I've always avoided (or tried to avoid) being 'far left' - there is no sympathy or compassion for people in the extremes of politics, they're all as bloody minded as each other. The human cost of the objective is irrelevant as long as the objective is achieved. And for Russia in Ukraine, the objective as far as the far left went was to criticise the US. 10,000 Ukrainian nazis. That's it, in a country of 42m. We have people saying that this is justifiable because of 10,000 people. I'd wager we have more nazis in the UK ffs.
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Hungary now falling into line on Swift. Looks like we'll get that over the line.
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I think it depends on what happens after he's killed Zelenskiy. Will Ukraine continue to function without a government, will it be able to coordinate an effective response? Also, we don't know that his goal is conquest, if it's just regime change then he will have secured an objective as long as he gets a puppet government in place.
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I have a colleague in the Ukraine who just checked in - old news really but he's confirmed that he's not allowed to leave the country for possible mobilization of men into the armed forces, and that they can't drive anywhere because the Russians are killing civilians at random.
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450 dead while Ukraine has been close to full capability though. I mean the numbers have seemed light on all sides for two forces supposedly trying to kill each other IMO.
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Putin has demanded that the Ukrainian army overthrow their leadership who are all "neo-nazis and genocidal" Meanwhile, The Council of Europe is has started proceedings to eject Russia.
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It does sound that way. No one is coming to save them though, we already know this. They know this. We are letting this happen.
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Naturally yes, I'd go so far as to say most of them. We need much better leaders than we actually have, seemingly right across the board.
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How is it on Frame rate? I want to try it but I'm a bit concerned on that front. Also stuck into Witch Queen atm for the next week or so.
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Ludicrous and weak response from those nations. Italy's stance (if true) is beyond words. If Putin invades Germany would they 'understand' if we sat there deliberating over a fucking sanction.
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Aye. The EU has been fucking useless on this. I can't believe I'm watching reports of Boris fucking Johnson trying to persuade Germany to do the right thing. Is that real? Is that spin from our side?
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Yeah he's not going. And yes, he may well be killed for it.
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He is, he's refused to leave as I understand it. Much will depend on whether the government can remain functional in some form or another, or how well the chain of command is preserved.
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Some commentators are saying Putin's grasp of reality has slipped altogether now, so on that basis we probably can't rely on him being a rational actor. I don't know if it's true though, this all seems very calculated to me.
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I've read some people saying that Ukraine isn't faring as badly as it seems - they're engaging in asymmetric warfare which effectively means they've recognised they're the weaker player and have ceded ground with only light resistance (which does map against the number of casualties being quite low). This means the likelihood is that the Russians take Kyiv, which is a sad day indeed, but from that point on they're going to have absolute hell on their hands. I suspect Putin would have preferred that Ukraine met him head on, but that doesn't appear to be what's happening. So either Ukraine is about to give up without much of a fight at all, or they're preparing for a long and protracted fight.
