Rayvin

Immigration has negatively affected certain groups in society, absolutely no doubt about that. I remember speaking to taxi drivers about this from time to time (ironically), and they would tell me that immigration had pushed their wages down. Of course, once you dug in a bit more, it turned out that what had actually done it was the greater use of GPS and the council taking away the 'local area familiarity' tests, thus removing the barrier for entry for immigrants to take up taxi work. The taxi companies themselves naturally hired ever increasing numbers of drivers because it kept their costs down and ensured greater service availability. For me though, in that scenario, it's not the immigrants who are the problem. It's the local government policy to water down specialism, and the hiring firms who don't give a shit about their workers. Of course, as far as the taxi driver is concerned, stopping one of these is as good as stopping any. Although in reality, it'll still happen anyway because the UK still takes large immigration influxes from around the world, because it's in the interests of the rich to keep labour costs down. Brexit or not, their situation won't change. From a social standpoint, I really do think integration in this country for incoming immigrants has been an utter shambles. The point of bringing people into this country isn't to bundle them all together in specific areas so that you effectively have multiple different cultures living side by side in an uneasy standoff, it should be to bring people together so that cultures happily co-exist and can be shared with common bonds reinforced. We have failed at this, 100%. Because there's no votes in it, I would argue. Having said all of this, when Renton pulls out stats and research to highlight the positive good that immigration has brought about in this country, that is 100% unarguable unless someone has similar detailed research to the contrary. This is a level of debate that your average guy on the street rejects because he can't win it. He's all about his anecdotal evidence of things he thinks he has seen - ignoring the fact that he only sees what he wants to see (as do we all). But for anyone who does read and follow the stats, I mean what are we meant to do? Look at them and go "well, this here is well researched and ultimately is just the truth, but we can't really say it is because it will hurt the feelings of the working class man in the street"?

You're only looking at this from one side. If Labour -do- play to that audience, they also won't get elected. Because they will lose people who would find such nonsense repulsive. They're losing voters to the Tories, sure, but they're also losing them to the Greens and LDs. They're failing on both sides.

Fair. I know some actual leftwing militants so it feels like a distinction is needed between the two groups for me, but I understand the point then.

Can't quite believe that swing tbh. I mean that's a huge chunk of healthcare workers who have jumped over to the right. If it's true, it indicates that your average person really isn't paying attention to the 'left/right' nature of this, and is just eyeballing it based on leaders and surface level info. Which I can readily believe I guess. But I'm still not sure that I quite believe this is accurate.

I don't think it's just the 'militant left' doing that tbh. It's also the centrist, remainer professionals. In fact, there are very few groups who aren't calling the Brexit wing these sorts of names. And honestly, it's because we've seen them on TV, heard the arguments. I recall the guy who said he'd be fine with his son losing his livelihood if it meant he got Brexit. Selfish cunt. I have heard all the people ringing in to speak to James O'Brian with their views on why this was necessary and being shot down over and over again. They aren't thick because of their views, they're thick because they refuse to process new information because they've transformed their political opinions into an identity. We aren't going to reach them if they now see all of this shit as an identity. And for me personally, I don't give a shit anymore about their feelings or the need to pussyfoot around them. They're not coming back to 'our side' so why pull punches? And you know, another thing in all of this that I've said before - how fucking pathetic do you have to be as a grown man or woman to cast your vote based on whether or not someone said a view you had was stupid. This is politics for 5 year olds. So anyone who voted Tory because they think that people on the Labour side view them with disdain is just an insecure moron. If they're voting Tory because that's what aligns with their views, then fair enough. This isn't going to come back together for Labour - and it's not because of Starmer, the left, Corbyn, Blair, whoever - it's because of Brexit. Irreconcilable differences across the country because of political gameplaying.

God I hate us.

This is absolutely how I see it with the slender caveat that this is just one byelection, quite soon after the events of the last election in the overall scheme of things, and against the backdrop of the vaccine rollout. It's not what I would consider to be a totally fair test, in the same way that I didn't think the Brexit era was a particularly fair test for the Corbyn program. Labour won't get back into power without the red wall either, IMO. Not without some kind of wide ranging and serious electoral pact with a focus on PR, that again, they would need to rope Farage into. Wait for some kind of crisis with the Tories, use it as an excuse to band together across the spectrum, bring in PR. That has to be the sole focus for Labour now, they have no other options left, the above caveat notwithstanding.

I guess the silver lining there is it might provide Labour with some food for thought about their current approach. Hartlepool is exactly the sort of place their pro-Brexit, flag waving nonsense should have appealed to. Ship has sailed IMO, should stick to what their membership believes in, not what worked 25 years ago.

Should Labour be winning this? The press are treating it like a fairly bad thing for Starmer but I'm not convinced it's very meaningful.

"Nothing matters anymore" It's true. Until we start educating people at school on civics, we're going to continue having large numbers of people being indifferent to this stuff.

What is it that you think Labour should do to appeal to the electorate? It's reading very much like your view is that they should sit down and shut up, but I'm not sure that's going to turn the tide on this. I think Starmer is playing this badly firstly because he's chasing after a demographic that isn't listening to him, and secondly because he's alienating leftwingers and remainers who were already on side. So all he's done is make a bad situation worse. I think we're getting close to the point where he becomes a busted flush and needs to resign - unless his strategy suddenly starts paying off.

I meant more widely than that but you're not wrong really. For his valid criticism to be taken seriously he actually needs people to be listening. Tbh he might be best giving up midway through the term to allow someone new to come in. That way he has taken the sting out of the Corbyn legacy and given his successor something to run at.

I really don't think this strategy for Labour is working.

Yeah so that's my lesson learned on reading the post before the quoted text

All these people who talk about stability and so on, what do they think the sport is actually about? Because it really seems that for some of them, it really isn't about being competitive and improving. I mean ok Steve Howey, we're stable but... so? How is being 'stable' any better than being relegated in the overall scheme of things? Not sure I can see much difference between perpetual 17th and yoyoing between the Championship and the PL. You could in fact argue that the latter would be more satisfying.

Looks like the playoffs after a pretty shocking run of form. I reckon they might make it this time tbh, the teams around them all seem to be wobbling as well. Still can't believe this is their third season down there.

I think Sunak will go for it but honestly I think it'll be Gove. He'll have the Mail behind him, inevitably.

It was always going to end like this with Cummings and I'm actually fairly surprised it's taken as long as it has. I suspect he's got far more in his arsenal too. That is, however, a fantastically callous thing for the Prime Minister to say. It's almost unbelievable in fact, as it paints Johnson as a complete psychopath. If I was one of the people who believes he's a harmless buffoon, I'm not sure I'd swallow that.

I'm sure they actively overlooked better options as well. It wasn't strategic desperation, it was corruption.

No more a fan of Edwards than anyone else on here, but I can't see how or why that takeover would happen now. Would they really just have sat on their hands for the past year? Is there any evidence at all that it's still in the pipeline?

I can assist too.

The European Super League and Scottish Independence thread. That's how we roll on TT.

I'll be impressed if they're sanctioned at all. Pleasantly surprised with how this has gone though - the collapse of it has probably demonstrated that for all the bluster, these 6 teams do need the PL more than the PL needs them - at least that seems to be the position we're in at the moment. Whether Masters called their bluff or they failed to call his, I don't know.

Wonder if Charnley will bother himself to make a statement, or will just wait to see what the others write and copy and paste bits of what everyone else says.

I suspect all 14 of the clubs will be primarily motivated by the financial aspects of this, and will weigh up whether the damage from kicking the 6 "big" clubs out of the league will be greater or worse than letting it run on like this. Only the fans care about the sporting competitiveness of the league. The PL only care about their money and brand, the FA only care because they're paid to, the government only care because they think there's votes in it. As much as I'd love everyone involved to grow a pair and tell them to sling their collective hooks, I can't see it.