Rayvin

I wonder, probably more with desperate hope than anything else, if the EU have privately acknowledged that they would be willing to compromise on something small, and that Johnson has asked them to tee him up for a bit of grandstanding in order to sell it on the home front. Barnier travels to London tomorrow, agrees something minor, Boris gets to claim that the EU came grovelling back to the door and he had them over a barrel as the great mastermind he is, no one cares about the details, the EU go home happy to have gotten everything they wanted minus one very small thing, and the UK believes the whole thing was an example of British strength. That's the only play I can imagine.

Cameron starting all of this in the first place was one of the greatest acts of incompetence that I've ever witnessed, politically speaking. Including everything Chris Grayling has ever done. Boris has only been PM for about 18 months, he hadn't racked up a fiasco quite on that level (IMO) in that time - even with COVID which, again, is at least partially at Cameron's door for underfunding the NHS for a decade anyway. He now has. I cannot imagine ever again in British history will an elected official do as much damage to the country as Johnson has now managed, even allowing for Cameron having ultimately started it.

Is Boris Johnson now, finally, surpassing Cameron as the shittest Prime Minister in history? He's an irresponsible trainwreck of a human being before we ever get close to his abilities as a minister.

Incredible. Predictable, inevitable, but still incredible. Johnson is a cunt.

Far better off with KCG answering that one, I'm a recent convert. If I had to say, I'd imagine that a hard border would be worth the price to many Scots. I'd be ok with it personally.

Did he actually say that?

I agree with everything he's saying here and think it's smart that he is writing it in the Telegraph

I think I'm just done with democracy as you said further up and as I have said myself repeatedly. Gonna join KCG with the SNP vote though, an independent Scotland can't come soon enough.

Resigned membership as well but didn't want to mention it earlier because you'll doubtless be on at me again for flip flopping and tbf I did say I was going to quit after voting Starmer but i never got around to it. This is now twice I've resigned from the party due to their EU stance though. Once under Corbyn and now under Starmer. Fairly consistent on this point

Don't really disagree with any of that, but in the end this is a deeply held issue for me and one that I can't find it in myself to budge from. I mean it does affect me quite directly which is perhaps partially why. Either way though, I can't follow the party into this particular direction. And from the party's point of view, they have weighed my loss against the gains of the redwallers. They want them, not me. There's not all that much more to it.

I'm struggling to see it in the initial post, especially since the two statements it's couched between are both quite possibly accurate. Yes Starmer may set the foundations for a return, and yes I have given up on democracy. It's worth noting though that Starmer appears to me to be pragmatic above everything else. He isn't going to push us back towards the EU on principle, only if there are votes in it. Therefore it makes sense for me to hold my vote ransom if i ever want to see this happen. Not that I actually matter at all, but you get the idea. I stuck with him through a number of abstentions that made my stomach turn based on taking a pragmatic view myself, but if they stop being a pro-EU party then that really is the end of it for me.

I mean this in the nicest possible way, but i don't give a fuck who you blame - the idea that you think I can be shamed into voting labour based on this feeble logic is kind of hilarious. Blame me if it helps you sleep at night though.

I would tbf.

So you think that Labour will win power and then take us back into the EU?

It genuinely is - having been in a pretty difficult place for the past couple of years, I can say that being up here has helped me immeasurably. I'll be reluctant to go back, if the time ever comes.

Yeah I did it with Miliband, I remember what you're "meant" to do. But to some extent the party still has to represent you.

So my voting position becomes 100% "I hate the Tories". Because atm at least, Labour don't appear to stand for anything whatsoever. Again, pragmatism I'm sure, but apart from deciding they support Brexit, they've abstained on pretty much everything else. I get it, they're working out how to position themselves - but it's clear that this position is going to be over to the red wall voters. And great, I hope that works out for them, but my vote is not guaranteed, I've compromised more than I ever wanted to and at some point it has to stop. I mean it makes no difference anyway, I'm "radically left wing" so I'm not representative, Labour are ahead of the Tories in the polls by being a vague, bland colour of politics, and if they're going to "win" they'll do so with or without me. But we have now reached a point where me voting for them is actively voting against my own interests and making my life more difficult, so I think that's the point where I give Starmer the finger and we part ways.

Between Dumfries and Glasgow, one of the little villages down there. Slightly nearer to Dumfries tbf. I'll be moving soon but still in the area. I'm here in part because my Mum needs some support atm (as did I when I went, I suppose), and in part because coronavirus has sort of stopped me going back for what was supposed to just be a few months Ultimately I'm just rudderless right now but I do prefer living up here to being in England, I can say that very readily.

I've compromised enough. I've compromised all the way from basically supporting the vast majority of the Corbyn program to whatever watered down versions Starmer is going to put out, but I'm not stepping over the line on Brexit. “I wish we weren’t in the situation we are in now. But I think that trying to reopen those debates and those old wounds, I don’t think it will help the country move on and I don’t think it will help the Labour Party move on. “I don’t see that we’re going to be in a position that in the next election we’re going to be campaigning to go back into the EU… I think we need to accept the result of the referendum and the last election and move on. This is a pragmatic and sensible position for Labour to take but it's very clear as well. They're pandering to the fuckheads who voted for this. They are therefore taking my vote for granted - I've just had enough of it, I really have. I'm not voting for any party that isn't full on Remain, it is now my defining political position because it's about the only one I have left.

What is the point in voting for something you don't believe in? This isn't rhetorical, I'm genuinely wanting an answer to this.

I agree that there's no way back, but in the end what's the point in my vote if I'm not actually standing behind something I believe in? I have been a supporter of an ever closer union with the EU from even before all this fucking nonsense started - if I keep abandoning principle after principle then my vote is meaningless. It's just an empty, vague thing that I throw around without understanding it. If I don't vote for the things I care about, then why should I even pay attention? I'm not going to be able to vote Labour if they're pro-Brexit.

At the moment I am. Honestly if they ever get that second referendum and I'm not living in Scotland at that point I'd be over the border in a heartbeat. But aye, I'm up near Glasgow at the moment.

Not on Twitter. And he won't win if he doesn't take young urban people with him. Not sure he's going to manage that bit tbh. As for me, I'm just one vote - I don't give a shit what happens, couldn't be more disillusioned, but I'm not voting for a pro-Brexit party. That's just the end of it as far as I'm concerned.

Struggling to care. Too many lines in the sand being crossed. Labour can't just barrel over to the red wall and expect zero consequences on the other side. If they aren't in a pro-EU position, no matter how ridiculous that might look at the time, no matter how pragmatic they're being, I'll find it very difficult to vote for them. Aye but maybe they'll be weak enough to give Scotland indyref2 and then some of us can be rid of this nightmare.

https://labourlist.org/2020/10/we-wont-be-back-in-the-eu-rachel-reeves-sets-out-labours-brexit-policy/?fbclid=IwAR3a_Y9s1M97iICdsHHWEjmjI5rkt5YJswaHbk5tUF9CFVjnBpAM7MPIUTI Labour has given up on Britain being back in the EU and is now in a pro-Brexit position. I understand this, the ship has sailed etc. Unfortunately though, the pro-EU stance was why i voted for Starmer. Not sure I'll find many reasons to vote for him next time based on this. Or at all, frankly.