Rayvin

I remember a few people saying, some years ago when this was all kicking off, that maybe Brexit is what this country needs to finally move on from the Imperial past and embrace a global future. The failure of it will demonstrate to people how deluded our imperialist mindset is. Brexit is basically the UK's midlife crisis - divorce the wife, lose all the stability but convince yourself that you're going to be free, like how you used to be. The euphoria lasts for a while before you realise that yeah, you're free, but that you lost all that stability, mutual co-operation and support. Meanwhile your ex wife who missed you to begin with, is now increasingly happy to be shot of you and moving on towards a better future. Your thoughts turn to regrets, what could have been, how good things actually were once - and eventually you turn to drink, put on weight, and wonder what the point of being alive is as a nation, we are living this collectively.

I'm not saying that it's significant, I'm merely remarking that it happened. And we appear to be aligned on everything else. EDIT - although I do think he needs to be careful with that 9%. Labour can't afford to lose, frankly, anyone.

Hmm, I didn't view that as religious on our side in any sense. Revenge, war economy, domestic political factors but not defending the faith.

Politically non religious then. The West doesn't fight religious wars anymore is all I meant. Nowadays we just need to brand people terrorists and we can apparently blow up civilians with impunity.

I guess its also likely down to alienation of the left. Fair point ewerk, that would explain the 9 point fall in Labour voters.

Labour have fallen 3 points behind the Tories, Starmer is 1 point behind Johnson, and have fallen 9 points with Labour voters, all since November 5th. If you ask me it's because Labour continue to be a shambles.

I think it depends on how you view the people at the top. I think PL is right in his view because I don't believe, certainly throughout history and maybe even today, that there are any serious "true believers" at the top of religions. There are, however, a lot of tyrannical politicians who surround themselves with wealth and the trappings of power. These people will not have taken anyone to war for the sake of anything other than consolidation of their own power and importance. I'm not sure any other argument makes sense really, I mean there is no justification in the Bible at least for some of the atrocities carried out in the name of Christianity. So why would the supposed leaders of said religion depart from the heart and spirit of what they believe if not for their own human weaknesses and greed. In the end though, we've continued with the same power grabbing, resource hording and general fucking on even now, in a post religious age (in the West).

I thought they already had? The deal is dead isn't it?

Whereas in this country we drop the pretense and literally just elect the devil outright.

Aye, you can tell because they're wearing masks. Can't possibly be actual trumpers.

Perversely he might be worth voting for if it delivers PR. An English Parliament is irrelevant since we'll basically have that soon by default. Apparently support for Welsh independence is now at Scotland 2013 levels. It's going to be the north of England and London alone against the Tories at this rate.

They're just not a broad church anymore, it's too fractured. We need PR to solve this because Labour is incapable. When the left had power the centre was shouting and screaming and now the shoe is on the other foot both ways. You could argue that a unifier, someone palatable to both sides, could maybe restore this. Burnham maybe. Feels like this is now a make or break situation for Starmer even this soon into his leadership - if he can't unify then he needs to purge, if he purges then he'll almost certainly lose next time out. But beyond that, we desperately need PR. And it's worth noting that Farage is about to kick off Reform UK which will advocate for an English Parliament and PR. Labour should get out ahead of this or it's going to get torched in the heartlands once again.

Yep, certainly he should have done that before now, not sure how effective it would be with it being left this late. He could come out and call off the hounds I guess with a full apology even if he doesn't think it's right but he's not going to do that and I'm not particularly convinced it would make any difference now, the left is out for blood.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/18/labour-party-divided-corbyn-antisemitism The EHRC found that one of the key ways in which Labour acted unlawfully was by politically interfering in the handling of complaints. Half the party now believes that the original decision to suspend Corbyn amounted to political interference; the other half thinks lifting the suspension was the result of political interference (specifically a “factionally aligned political committee”, according to the Jewish Labour Movement). Either side can marshall convincing arguments, but this overlooks what is driving Labour’s internal crisis over antisemitism: the absence of trust. Instead of addressing this deeper issue, the charge of political interference has become a stick for members to beat each other with. The party is now more divided than ever, with Corbyn’s ordinary membership being treated as a separate issue to the question of whether the whip should be restored. Rather than moving on, Labour is stuck in a mess of its own making. ------- There are no winners in this shambles except the Tories. It had to be one thing or the other, not this weak as piss halfway house.

Seriously, the Saville line? That's the same shit the right trot out. That is dismal. What a fucking mess this entire thing has become.

It seems Starmer agreed with you. Now the Jewish community can be pissed that Corbyn was reinstated as a member, and the lefties can be pissed that he's still not welcomed back to sit as a Labour MP. Everyone wins! If you're a Tory, at least. He should just have just thrown him out of the party full stop ffs.

I agree, this is just a pointless sideshow now, and cult like attachments to anyone are utterly beside the point of what anyone is trying to achieve here. Corbyn is done, he's never going to come back or have another opportunity, they need to move on and find their next champion.

Clever from Starmer (if indeed he had anything to do with it at all), it'll put a seed of doubt in the minds of the fanatics that maybe their conspiracy theories of purges aren't actually real. Having said that, it's also just an accident waiting to happen on another day now.

And then came out to confirm that actually, that wasn't a concession I doubt he even knows what day of the week it is man. Everyone should just move on without him.

If they did that, they'd still be attacking Labour on Twitter and still just as visible as before. I don't think they're being fair with Starmer, I think it's fairly clear that he's trying to take both sides with him since he'll know the danger of losing the left, but in the end they're now fighting a war for the heart and soul of the party on the same terms that the moderates fought it while Corbyn was in charge. It's petty, damaging, and pointless. As it was when it was happening under Corbyn. As an aside which may give you some encouragement, it appears that in true leftist style, the various radical fringes are all turning on Momentum. I daresay that if you wait long enough, it'll all just collapse in on itself anyway.

I can't shake this feeling that, with Cummings continuing to work from home for the next 6 weeks, this is all political theatre. There's been no row, no sacking. Cummings probably came up with this himself in order to lend some power and authority back to Johnson ahead of his planned departure at Christmas. May even have been the price for some lucrative contract to a mate. The only reason I can think of for this not being theatre is that Cummings' pride might prevent such an outcome... except that he has so much disdain for the rest of us that I could legitimately see him enjoying taking us for fools.

I honestly don't know but I guess we'll find out after 4 years of Biden.

They've just been bought by Juan Sartori and the heir of Louis-Dreyfus. Not a homeless person in sight.

I guess you have more faith in them than I do. They believe what they read on the internet and don't let anything outside of their accepted beliefs enter their thinking. It's why 40% of this country still wants Brexit to happen despite the fact that a considerable number of Yeehaw McCrackens in the Tory party, including Churchills own grandson, rebelled over it. They just get further and further radicalized. Maybe because they keep winning tbh. I do have some hope that seeing Trump lose might take the wind out of their collective sails a bit. A large part of their identity is this notion that they are a silent majority and that "all" people think like them.