Rayvin

It's running pretty high up on the Mail Online: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5146603/May-races-win-DUP-Brexit-divorce-deal.html Also this one, branding May as "ludicrously incompetent" http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5146793/Sturgeon-leads-Remoaner-drive-UK-single-market.html

I hope they don't. I'm far less convinced that the government would just blunder into this than the rest of you seem to be. And I still think that nothing is lost by waiting, if this is indeed an unsolvable problem.

I think this too, for the most part. I just don't think anything was lost in a strategic sense by not committing to an assault on Brexit before all the pieces are on the board, whereas Renton and ewerk seem to think that barrelling into the issue while May technically has the ability to manoeuvre, is the way forward.

As an aside, this looks like a confession that we've all been right about this all along.

You think so? The Daily Mail commentariat, who I use as a barometer for crazy right wing thinking, all consider the prospect of NI having different terms to be tantamount to 'giving NI to the EU'. Treason. Selling off the UK. No deal is better than a bad deal. This has a long fucking way to run yet. How practically achievable Brexit is, is far less important than how Brexit is perceived.

If she does that, then the threats from Scotland, Wales, London all look rather more serious. I actually think Labour could take her on over that position. The Leavers would hate it as much as the Remainers.

I don't believe in rushing in, and I enjoy strategy. I just don't think Labour, or any of us, have very much to lose here by just letting the Tories continue to hang themselves. UNLESS the concern at the back is that they might somehow come out with something looking like a successful deal.

So look - If May comes out and somehow resolves this problem she's created for herself, then Labour were right to sit back IMO. Getting involved and having the Tories come out with a win will expose them. If Labour sit back, watch to see if she can pull it together, and she fails... then I think they should go in all guns blazing. And then I'll agree with you that they're not helping anyone if they don't.

Building narratives does take time but you need to think about which narrative needs to be built here. Labour have a narrative for themselves, and they're fairly comfortable in it. The Brexit narrative is the one that is being built, and I actually don't think it needs much interference from Labour to develop into a nightmare. It's doing that before our eyes anyway. Everything that has happened in the last few days is building the narrative on Brexit.

Disagree. The victory for May is turning it around and exposing Corbyn as a traitor to Brexit. She could bait him in here and come out with a much bigger victory if she turns it around.

If you ever needed more proof that I was right, here it is.

So he comes out and says that, and then May turns around and claims she has found a way to make it all work - so she then looks like actually, she does have answers. Corbyn is treated with suspicion by Leavers because it looks like he was making a play to reverse Brexit, whereas May has them firmly back on side again. The alternative option being he waits for her to fail to sort this out in any significant way, and when certain that this is the case, goes in with the line you're suggesting it. I just think it's still premature at this point, we don't know how things will look in a day or so.

There's good evidence to suggest that Labour have weak leadership. I'm not denying this. All I'm saying is that personally, if it were me, I still wouldn't have showed my hand. Things can still get worse for the Tories, unless you think they're on the cusp of turning the whole thing around.

The leaders of Scotland, Wales and London were calling to remain in the SM/CU to embarrass the PM. It's not the watershed moment and you know it. If the PM forces it through, then these threats actually have weight, then we have the time to strike. As it stands, Corbyn could throw the kitchen sink at her here, only for today's discussions with the DUP to somehow resolve the situation and the whole effort to be wasted.

He'll see himself as a pressure release then. Flatly wrong though - the pressure in the UK was anti-establishment, not racist change. He morphed something potentially positive into something horrifying. Still though, the man is shameless - hardly likely to come out and say anything genuinely self-reflective. Still fighting his war at the moment.

They'd also immediately polarise people into Leave and Remain camps again, and I'm really not sure that enough Leavers have swung to Remain, for that to work in our favour.

Still disagree, there's a better moment around the corner IMO. I mean look, I've already said it could just be weak leadership - I conceded the possibility of that quite readily around the same time as the post you're quoting. Having said that, what happened yesterday wasn't "Brexit falling apart". If May genuinely gets herself into a position where she's ousted from Number 10, then I think they should turn the guns on Brexit itself. But if they had come along yesterday (and Corbyn did make a statement yesterday, not that the press really cared) and gotten fully involved, they would have been asked the following question: What would you do differently to resolve the Irish border issue then? The only possible answer to that is "stay in the single market". Too early for that to come out, IMO.

We have no idea what it should be, we can only say what it is. And it is better than being 20 points behind going into the last GE.

Good grief... I mean I just struggle to conceive of a government being this shit but...

This is kinda what I mean though, everything that has happened so far will have been well fucking anticipated by the Tories. Let's not start celebrating until they're actually caught off guard.

Labour 8 points ahead of the Tories according to a Mail on Sunday Survey: http://survation.com/labour-extends-polling-lead-8-points-conservatives/

https://twitter.com/bopanc/status/937694603037364224 This is the main bit.

Actually, there are some commentators claiming that this is what has happened, with help from the EU. Can't link it easily because I don't use Twitter, but this guy basically: https://twitter.com/bopanc?ref_src=twsrc^tfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fpolitics%2Fblog%2Flive%2F2017%2Fdec%2F04%2Ftheresa-may-heads-to-brussels-hoping-to-conclude-phase-one-of-brexit-talks-politics-live

I so badly want to believe this is true, but I expect in a months time we'll have moved onto the next shambles as they will have somehow muddled through this