Rayvin

Tbf to Bob, he's a regular in the guardian comment section - probably the most well known one from our fanbase - and he spends a lot of his time defending the club from all manner of bullshit. I do think he gets himself tied into knots a bit at times but he's put himself into a situation where he's pretty constantly under fire on the clubs behalf. So I kinda get it. And honestly he knows you're right too I would wager.

Agreed on all of that. And yes, but moving back to Newcastle soon, at last. As much as I would probably hop over the border again if there was an EU angle to it, I miss Newcastle and my friends there. Life is too short to be away from people you love.

Any economic pain is worth freedom and sovereignty mate Maybe you're right on the PR thing, that could be an interesting development. But then if I'm voting in it, I would still vote leave for the EU.

I was always under the impression that the SNP would do basically anything for another crack at independence. Giving us a final attempt to save ourselves by introducing PR before they disappear into the sunset would be an agreeable way for our relationship with Scotland to come to an end. A coherent electoral strategy for PR and coalition would inevitably bring me back into voting for whatever made that successful. A true left/centre alliance would be worth crossing some red lines for and would probably lock out the Tories for a generation if done well. Forever if it ended with PR.

The more I think about it, the more I think this window almost has to be a frustrating one if we are to avoid being seen as a Man City style entity. It's going to take clubs seeing us walk away from decent players because of them taking the piss, for this notion that we're easy money to be kicked off the table.

Yeah I'm kinda surprised by that but I can understand why we did it. Only slight annoyance is that I don't really think the other alternatives we've been linked with look particularly good - wonder who we'll move onto next. This may also help us secure Botman tbh, if Lille see we're not messing around.

Has there been any more talk about PR since one of the unions went into it? I was sort of hoping that might stack into a concerted policy shift but I've not seen anything further on it. Maybe they're just feeling it out with the public I suppose.

Aye he's done well everywhere I've seen him. Although I would say that the questioning has been so shocking that I'm tempted to argue he's had a fairly easy job in some respects. Morgan questioning him about thunderbirds was just bizarre.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-61789443 Lynn Fitch, who seems to be an Attorney General in the US, has claimed she is empowering women by getting rid of Roe vs Wade. It will "remove the false choice between career and children. Women can have both" I had to read this several times to make sure I actually understood what was being said, it's that ridiculous.

Aye I mean, ours isn't that low tbh Would have raised some eyebrows if they'd put it up I think. I thought Ashley had been locking prices in place for years?

Yeah I think this is a far better outcome than Henderson so I'm pleased to see it. Not sure this is as key a position to cover as the club seem to have decided, but more depth is never a bad thing, and this is quality depth.

While there is some good debate in here, it is ultimately an echo chamber. It's notable that very few discussions on here ever go down nuanced paths - the majority either agrees with you, or you're satan. Sometimes some of us are on the wrong side of that, other times we're not All that youthful angst that makes it like this, IMO

I'm just explaining to you a factor in a decision I made, there's nothing further to it than that. I'm happy to just leave this if you are.

Believe it or not, I'm actually pretty chill about this - and I have genuinely no bad blood with anyone on any of this. I anticipate it will resolve and then we go on as normal.

If the first bit is true, and I can read it that way, then I apologise. I hope you can see from the apology that I was genuinely under a particular impression of what you had said when I responded. On the latter bit - I didn't say you were terrible, I just avoided dialogue for a bit because I didn't like how that exchange ended. A personal choice - I have anxiety and make decisions to avoid getting myself worked up at times.

It's interesting, because I recall in our first debate, you accused me of putting words in your mouth when I called out something you had plainly written. You and I, for whatever unfortunate reason, do not seem able to engage well. I've tried to deal with that by not replying to you (for a time), or by standing back from things - and we have been having a perfectly reasonable discussion in the other thread. But you've just come over to this one and called me out in the middle of a separate discussion I was having, asked me what I do for a living and then more or less implied that I just sit and complain rather than doing any productive about anything I believe in. I don't know really what it is you want from me but I would like to assure you and Renton both that I'm writing more with grim exasperation than anything on the edge of anger. You can judge me if you want, I simply wanted to hold up to you that I was aware of it. I don't understand your last line btw - I haven't rebutted every challenge with 'people are idiots'. In fact in this thread, I'm sitting here protesting that people aren't idiots and can handle the truth (if delivered correctly and over a sustained period). That said though, people are idiots.

You're the one who said you felt bad about making a personal attack. And what is it you hoped to do with the information about my profession if not use it in consideration of who I am and the impact any of it has on what I say? I'm not even really challenging you on that tbh, we all make judgements of each other - do what you want.

If something to be hopeful about becomes evident, I will be hopeful.

You have a view of me that I don't recognise but you've had it for quite some time so I'm just going to accept that it is what it is. For what it's worth, I'm not talking about not voting. I just probably won't vote Labour. Like you, I base my voting on manifestos. I'll vote Green, maybe LD. Whatever aligns better. If you see me as cowed, I can live with that. I see anyone who accepts this pathetic trudge into oblivion as cowed. I agree on actual uprising being a mechanism to force change by the way, but that's very unlikely in the UK. If you think I just sit and complain, on the basis of precisely zero personal information about me, that's up to you. For me, you are just a human being with a view. That's it. That's the sum total of everything you represent to me, no more or less than any other. So don't worry about a 'personal attack' because honestly, you don't have anywhere near enough information about me to make one. I'm not apathetic by the way, or I wouldn't be here standing up for what I believe in in the midst of all this noise. I have the views I have because I care. <detail about my work, edited out after clearing up misunderstanding> Does this better equip you to judge me?

What I'm sat here wondering is how in the jaded, misanthropic nightmare of my perception of reality, I'm the one who is standing here with any hope. Did not see that coming.

When does the truth come back if we do that? Listen to what you're saying man ffs. Someone, somewhere, somehow needs to actually stand up for what we consider to be values in our society. I know it's scary, but it is the only way anything is ever actually going to get better. As opposed to 'getting bad more slowly' which seems to be what you're content with.

Actually, to take another go at that - I'm not saying Labour aren't much better because they won't bring it back. This isn't about whether Labour are "good" or not. They're clearly party made up of far more compassionate and thoughtful people than the Tories. This is about the fact that in continuously conceding arguments, they are giving up far, far too much ground. This is incredibly dangerous, and means we are losing things that we will not get back. And we won't get them back because no one will make the case for them out of fear. Can you not see how that only leads in one direction. More slowly, but still the same way. I reject the idea that it has to be this way.

I disagree with the premise that Labour can't win using truth. They're running scared, but they don't have to be.

That might be your point. I'd rather we were shouting loudly about our principles and seeking to reclaim lost ground, not accepting an ever lower drop through the floor. Your position permits for Labour to come in periodically and stop the rot for a few years while being terrified of reversing anything that might lose them votes, and then for the Tories to get back in and destroy even more. That is staggered decline. We need to win and build, and to do that we need to actually stand up for what we believe in, at some fucking point. I'm really kind of amazed at how cowed we've become.

I want to be clear that I respect your view and have no particular reason to believe mine is correct other than it makes sense to me until I otherwise become convinced of something else. I also don't remember our last discussion going south but I end up in so many battles on here at times that it can be hard to keep on top of specifics. I enjoy history, my first degree had a significant component of it tailored to Chinese history in particular, but I've not had the opportunity to dabble further. One day I hope to do a PhD tracking human development and trying to identify key moments of progress of pivot points in history. Not because I think no one has done this or because I can add anything, but just for myself. I would say that yes, history is always someone's view through their own lens - but that doesn't mean that there isn't an actual absolute truth of an event behind it. Yes, we are limited by their interpretation and biases, but the thing still happened for whatever reason it actually did happen. There is a truth. We have a moral obligation to get as close to it as we can, for all the difficulty we may have in doing that. I use the labels as broad strokes terms to encapsulate a range of similar viewpoints, not to chastise or demonise. I am happy enough to be told that someone is predominantly left wing but with some right wing leanings, I can handle that in my worldview. As I said, I'm more concerned with consistency and logical frameworks in that regard - the labels/frameworks are a useful tool for ensuring one has a consistent worldview. We agree on corporations versus regulated capitalism. Capitalism probably could be made to work. Excuse for apathy and inaction - Maybe. But the world is going to hell in a hardcart and no amount of protest is changing that as far as I can see. Climate change resistance took greater support from COVID than it ever seems to have done from protest. We (humanity) are losing on every front in an information war with the old and powerful and, frankly, ourselves. I dislike Putin more because of his role in creating this level of informational catastrophe than I do for his invasion of Ukraine. He is not alone here though, just one of the more effective agents for it. Finally - I agree about the utopian vision. It's why I'm pro-EU. Pro-Federal EU even. Hell, I'd even have welcomed in Russia. Internationalism is the only way forward in my worldview.