Renton

Honestly, these wankers man.

Fair enough, I see your point. Tbh I can barely remember what happened under Cameron, too distracted by work and family at the time. Until 2016, then work and family just got in the way of politics.

A good strategic move more like. He won't resign if he's found to have broken the rules and not fined. And county Durham's constabulary's policy is not to give retrospective fines (see Dominic Cumming's much more egregious rule breaking).

A bit over-dramatic. They were a minority party that couldn't block any tory policies regardless. They didn't want to be tarred with the reckless spending stereotype. I think they abstained rather voted affirmatively though iirc. But I agree this was a massive tactical and strategic blunder and I can see why it would make many people extremely angry. Ed was always a poor choice of leader. Blame the unions again for that.

They probably had your landline number in a historical record. Yes, I have one, rarely use it though. Interesting they claim to have phoned your mobile and there was no record in your log. Exact same thing happened to me when my GP "phoned" 2 weeks ago. I presumed he was lying. The GP text messages got through okay though.

Starmer confirms he will resign if he's fined. This could still work out okay for him.

Wrong. After 2008 Brown went Keynesian if anything and the economy was in recovery before Cameron throttled it.

That's a fair point. But they did that in opposition, nothing they could have done practically to stop austerity although I wholeheartedly agree they lost the narrative on this and it was a strategic blunder. This was under Ed Miliband though of course, generally considered to be fairly leftish. I think austerity would have been much diminished in power though, hence my repeated point, you have to be in power for any of this to matter.

I don't agree that the centrists have harmed my objectives - to improve the country and make it fairer - at all. Perhaps you could give me an example (I might agree with you on foreign policy tbf, but I'm talking domestically). If you mean the centrists were a block to Corbyn getting elected, then I disagree. He was utterly unelectable, full stop.

Honestly, I'm not that interested in the labels as such because its all relative and subjective. To me it's quite simple. Those who want to seize power and introduce incremental changes for the good, and those who want to remain ideologically pure and aren't really interested in power at all. Which group does most good and which does most harm?

Another reason we need PR, so both factions of the party can be represented separately. I am sick of Labour shooting itself in the foot. Corbyn opposed the leadership constantly, he should have a different platform. The majority of the party ore centre left in outlook.

There's also a lot of rumours that Beergate was leaked to the Mail by a disgruntled Corbynite. Think this may be related to Pidcock's team but I'll not go further because it's speculation. It's daft making unfounded accusations. Everybody in Labour despises the Sun and Mail but people have different ideas how to manage them.

This is news to me. Have you got a link? A link to where Starmer was happy with the Mail et al. attacking Miliband (really???) and Corbyn would also be appreciated.

But listening to R5 today, since Starmer called for Johnson to quit whilst he was being investigated and before his FPN, they will still stick to the hypocrite line. But clearly will be very vulnerable/uncomfortable in doing so. But honestly, the birthday cake thing was fuck all. I am hoping the met have more to dish out (I realise they probably won't). The Grey enquiry too.

I think electoral reform would facilitate long-term strategic planning. FTP doesn't allow for it, certainly.

Exactly.

Agreed. The problem is that political parties of all colours put their (perceived) self interest above that of the country. Particularly frustrating for Labour, because I expect better from them than the tories, but also because I just think they are wrong on this and actually PR is also in their own self interest. We can't move on until we have electoral reform, but I agree it will never happen. It's sheer madness.

This is by far my biggest frustration, and has been since before Blair even. I think the next 10 years we are going to experience significant events that will shake this country to the core, then who knows? Losing Scotland and NI are the most obvious, but I suspect there will be other shocks. Can you imagine England literally surrounded by EU countries or EFTA affiliates in the future? Doesn't seem tenable does it? Anyway, guess I'm trying to say, our future will be determined by events we don't have much control over. I'm getting to an age where I just accept it now. Que sera.

Yeah, just meant Labour will come out with someone much like Starmer, but most likely less competent imo. The party's direction won't change in the way you want it to. It would be disruptive and bad for the UK as a whole imo.

Good, don't know why he didn't say that from the off. So now he has some moral high ground if he escapes a FPN.

And its the same with the tories, maybe moreso. Wonder if we could see a GE sooner than anticipated. Holding off isn't helping the tories imo. Thinking about Starmer though, presuming he doesn't receive a FPN, and I don't see how he will, I think it would neutralise his partygate attacks somewhat but surely Johnson couldn't weaponise it against him either. People will just move on with general distrust of politicians.

Nobody is irreplaceable, although this would take down Rayner too. Unfortunately I don't have that much faith in the labour front bench. Better than the tories certainly but by and large powder puff. You're not getting what you want regardless.

I just don't get this antipathy about Starmer but there we are. I agree "Beergate" will muddy the waters and is intended to tar all politicians with the same brush, and it will. But it'll not help Johnson that much as I've been saying for months now. Two reason. Firstly, because it's impossible to service his voters in both the red and blue walls, always has been since "he got Brexit done". Secondly, "It's the economy, stupid". Everybody is feeling poorer and its going to get much worse (according to the BoE). Not survivable. I could add thirdly that more scandals are fairly inevitable under this clown shoe.

Absolutely this. Johnson was a short term fix for the tories but a long-term death sentence. Purging your party of talent and integrity and replacing them with talentless sycophants was not a good move for anyone else but Johnson. Nadine Dorries ffs! We are literally watching the results unfold right now. Key casualty historically will be the split of the union, that's what will be in the history books.