bez

There are reasons for these issues. I don't believe there is ONE reason for any ONE issue though. When the pay ones are worked out. Is it a minor discrepancy? Look at the equal opps web site Look at the DTI web site Women in similar jobs get paid less than men. Acceptable? Black people in similar jobs find promotion more difficult than whites. Acceptable? There are always flaws in statistics. I was asked to bring some to the debate. These are simply a selection.

Discrimination relating to pay: Equal opps commision details stats. http://www.eoc-law.org.uk/Default.aspx?page=2685 black people (same job examples are noted) get paid LESS than white counterparts FOOTBALL RACISM - decent article from the BBC. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/4034423.stm To those who simply say 'mentioning it is as bad as being it' or similar .....look at the statistics and tell me how you think it will go away if we simply ignore it. It isnt all people, but as Bridget says..there probably is a subconscious at work and it isnt favouring equality.

• Ethnic minorities account for approximately 5.6% of the UK's population. [Office for National Statistics] • Unemployment stands at 6% for whites, 8% for Indians, 19% among the black community, and 21% among Bangladeshis and Pakistanis. • 23% of those studying medicine are from ethnic minorities. [HESA Students in Higher Education] • Ethnic minorities make up 1% of the Armed forces. The MoD target is 5% by 2002. [MoD] An African graduate is seven times more likely to be unemployed than a white graduate. [institute for social & economic research (Uni. of Essex)] • On average, Pakistani/Bangladeshi men earn just over half the salary of their white peers. Caribbean & African men earn approximately two thirds. [institute for social & economic research (Uni. of Essex)] • Only 52 of the 3,000 senior civil servants are from ethnic minorities. Of those, 46 are men and six are women. [Whitehall figures] • 47% of Britain's ethnic minorities live in London. [Office of National Statistics.] • Caribbean men are more likely than any other ethnic group to be in a mixed-race relationship. One third of Caribbean women and Asian men are with a white partner. [PSI] • There are no black high court judges. 15.8% of new solicitors are black or Asian and 8.5% of barristers are non-white. [Law Society, 1998] • More than 40% of 16-17yr olds from ethnic minority groups are unemployed compared with 18% of their white peers. [Labour Force Survey] • Black people nearly eight times more likely to be stopped and searched, 4 times more likely to be arrested than white people. [statewatch] • Only 29% of Black teens passed five GCSE exams at grade C or above compared with 47% of white teenagers, 53% of Indians and 61% of SE Asians. [Ofsted report] • Asians account for nearly 10% of university applications compared with 3.3% from Black students. [PSI] • Black people are between four and seven times more likely to be sentenced to prison terms than white people. [statewatch - (police research group)] • Black children are six times more likely to be expelled or suspended from school than their white counterparts. [Children's society.1999] Some worrying issues? There are similar situations between male and female although we don't have an lasses playing for NUFC first team just yet. The difference in pay for the SAME job for men and women is about that a woman is paid about 20% less. There are similar problems between white /black. Nb: Issues in Birmingham recently are not to far away from Toxteth 20 odd years ago. It HASNT gone away.

Very true, when on the pitch he gives everything and brings a pace and threat we lack without him at times. Also last season before his injury he was instrumental in any good performances we had and we suffered when he was out. He'd be a big asset to the team if he played like that again and for a good run of games and its beyond dispute that we have missed him. I hope he gets fit and stays here for a good long while. But i can understand why people are pissed off at him practically not playing at all this season and think he should be sold. Though if you're injured you're injured, i'm not one of these people who thinks players are feigning innury or just don't care, they love playing football like we all would, so why bother missing out on games on purpose? 48964[/snapback] I think he will be another gone in the summer. Very good player. Doubt he is faking injury. Thats just daft. Footballers with pace tend to have bad hamstrings. It stresses it. Could be very good for us. Would actually be ok alongside Owen or on the right away from home (Solano desnt have the best track record away from home for us or Villa) Dpends if he gets fit...and when

Wasn't Justin Fashanu openly gay while playing. It's certainly why Clough had the police escort him away from training when he refused to leave. 48965[/snapback] Not when he was at the peak of his career. It wasnt common knowledge to fans. Might have(and probably was) known within the game but he came out a little later. Cloughs biography states that this issue was one of his biggest regrets. Basically he says he didnt understand Fashanu's problems and mismanaged them

He certainly was. I'm not one of the fans who think he is shite, i think he is currently playing shite. My problem is when Bramble is fit we all know it should be him and Taylor on current form who play, but when it comes down to it, it will be a case of: Boom - Bought by Souness for £8m Bramble - Cost money but not by Souness Taylor - Kid who cost nowt Who here thinks Boom will be the one dropped, because i don't. I think he'll either not bring Bramble back in or will drop Taylor. Or more likely Taylor will miss 1 game due to 5 yellow cards and Bramble will return and Taylor will then be out the team. And this isn't an anti-souness rant, its something that applies to many managers who favour their big signings regardless of form. 48954[/snapback] People go overboard about Taylor. He isnt convincing. Dives in and gets pulled out of position too easily. He WILL be a good player though, at present he is decent. I dont like him and Bramble together though. When Boumsong has his confidence I would go for Boumsong/Bramble. If the 3 are ever fit and on form I think the best pairing is as I said - Boum/Bramble. At present i would have Bramble/Tayor. One thing though. Wouldnt be convinced at Taylor/Bramble organising it themselves. Not enough experience there. Boumsong is the one with the real pace too. For all he has problems he kept Camara quieter than most of late. Indeed, Henri came off. The other is do you let Boumsong play through it or just get him out? What does that do for his confidence? Its shot already. I think GS will play him but at present its academic. Most seem to let them play through it in the belief that form is temporary.

Yeah, i used to think like that. It happens a lot. The majority are fine. The minority arent. Not explicity that is. I heard various decent people call Andy Cole things in an out of the ground they shouldnt have when he came back. That they 'didnt mean it' like that isnt good enough.

Rich coming from you tbh I think you need to read the thread more.... Yesterday was KROF day. The message is simple...dont tolerate racism. One strike...OUT. However, it works on different levels. WE have always had Bigger problems with racism than most in our history. Howard Gayle wasnt met with glee. Put it that way. Other teams had serious bother here. I've mentioned Alex Williams as its the biggest and easist reminder of our illustrious past. I cant imagine anyone not having heard racism at SJP. On various levels its alive and well. Black people HAVE to work harder for recognition than white people in our society. Their errors are tolerated less. WE know that from various academic surveys. Factual evidence exists. Put NUFC into this and we see that black players have to work harder for recognition and are given less leeway. Some of the comments from people on various boards are ludicrous. Of course it isnt all. However, there are certainly those on other boards who happily support the NF and have been known to post pics supporting it. Plenty of them in fact. Whilst we have those people it doesnt take the wit of Soloman to see where some of the pointless diatribes come from. Acceptable? Its there. If you prefer not to see it. That is your problem. It isnt as bad or as big as it was. However, it exists. We know the KROF campaign is there for a reason. There are various people who condone racism when they shouldnt. That is SICK. Plenty of examples at SJP. Plenty of comments that are skipped over are actually racist. Plenty of example that can be used to attempt to illustrate that we love black players. Cole (did you hear some of the comments when he returned?) Ferdinand etc. Valid? As valid as the point that indicates that we havent managed to stamp out the problem. There is plenty to debate on this issue without that ludicrous, ill-informed, badly written junk from a bloke who condones it.

Churlist 48871[/snapback]

Nope. It simply says that there have been numerous articles wondering why there have been so few black managers. Gullit got a fair crack up here I thought. Flys in the face of what I say but he had a charisma when he came that evaporated when he arsed up. That has nowt to do with race. My question remains the same. GENERALLY are black players given a fair and EQUAL crack of the whip from fans? I am not convinced. The black manager issue is just another way of saying that black people in football have more to prove. They find it more difficult. 48837[/snapback] Well this thread has certainly gone off in all directions! Have to mention Leroy Rosenior here, hes our manager at Torquay united. And he's black. He got the job on merit because our chairman felt he was right for the job. Admittedly we're not doing well this season, but we will never forget he took us up to league one and gave us so many memories to cherish on the way. Leroy has our respect and we always sing his name at the end of a match, even now while we're struggling. Leroy being black is never and has never been an issue here, infact, Torquay have in recent years had a high percentage of black players (before leroy's time) this is quite unusual when you think there are so few black people living down here in Devon. The vast majority of tufc fans are white, yet we never have a racist problem here. i think once i heard some idiot call out a name and he was very quickly removed by stewards and fans i might add. I really believe people can make a problem where there isnt one, often by giving these racist morons the attention they crave. 48867[/snapback] Fair point . Should we have KROF days? Do we need them? If there are problems with racism, even in everyday UK life, e.g the jobs market, what do we do about it?

Yeah, but apparently you can't slag off the black players. That's racist. 48861[/snapback] Thats not racist. Your comment, however, is churlish. 48864[/snapback] Me? A churl? I've never been so offended 48866[/snapback] I said Churlish. Not even a 'proper' churl as Graeme Souness might say.

Yeah, but apparently you can't slag off the black players. That's racist. 48861[/snapback] Thats not racist. Your comment, however, is churlish.

On a little fishing expedition with that one, Bez ??? 48788[/snapback] I was going to say stranger things have happened but...

Strangely mate, I was thinking the same thing however seeing as there have been so many great black players then I cant see why black managers wouldnt be given a job I therefore put it down to one simple fact, not many black people want to be a football manager. 48843[/snapback] You would think so but Batson and Alexander (see the bbc link i posted in an earlier thread)seem to think they have to 'work harder and do better' if they want to be appreciated That is the point i started this debate with. Even for fans perhaps black players have to do better to be appreciated by us. For many, in their subconscious, that may be the case.

But there are disproportionately more black players. No-one with any sense would argue this meant white people were being desciminated against though. You can add Tigana too. 48833[/snapback] Yeah there are a few. Not enough though. Certainly according to somearticles I have red they reckon it is institutional. Take a look at this. Decent artlicle. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/4034423.stm

why should what happened 300 years ago ivolving people im in no way related to affect me getting a job? its like me saying ''aye but i wouldnt give the job to the black lad cos i was racially abused by a black man a couple of years ago.'' 48822[/snapback] Ignoring the fact that black people are still the victims of racism far moreso than white people.... The fact that black people are generally the poorest in developed nations stems from historical racism. It's not enough to say "we're all equal" when we're obviously not (How many black people did you see at the match on Sunday? In the pub before or after? where you work(other than cleaners)). What is required is a system of integration that accelerates the equilibrium of all races in society. That system is positive discrimination. Don't think of it as paying for what your ancestors did, but investing in future generations who can live in a world without racism. Fingers crossed. 48838[/snapback] Good post. There isnt any equilibrium of any sort at present. As for our history? Well some say we cant be held accountable for the deeds of our forefathers. Well, as long as we live under the same flag and nation state, we are obliged to. In my view.

Nope. It simply says that there have been numerous articles wondering why there have been so few black managers. Gullit got a fair crack up here I thought. Flys in the face of what I say but he had a charisma when he came that evaporated when he arsed up. That has nowt to do with race. My question remains the same. GENERALLY are black players given a fair and EQUAL crack of the whip from fans? I am not convinced. The black manager issue is just another way of saying that black people in football have more to prove. They find it more difficult.

Black managers? I agree on class structure though. That is another issue.

Peasepud. Just looking at another quote. From what we were saying about black people in general getting opportunities. How many black football managers in the football league and premiership (i mean ever.) We are actually one of the few clubs to have employed a black manager. Is there a reason for the paucity of black managers? Alexander? Curle? Gullit? not many. Its not really representative is it?

I agree with the argument overall but to decide that because you've heard or read a comment that you've taken as being racist doesnt make all forum members or newcastle/ football fans in general guilty of it. I do however feel that in the main, this country is not racist or sexist, whether in the workplace, the football ground or life in general. There are many reasons why there are less female or black managers than white male all of which can be turned around by people and made to be racist/ sexist reasons. Less female managers? a) lots of businesses such as heavy engineering etc have less female entrants, not because the business dont want females but because they themselves would rather not do that work therefore theres less of them to be promoted. b ) many women during their career leave to have children, its a fact of life that no matter how equal we want to be we cannot reverse genetics therefore breaks in careers make it harder to keep upto date or gain as much experience as a male counterpart. Less black managers? a) rightly or wrongly a lot of the black community come from poorer areas, and I know that this could be seen as a form of racism however its a fact of life, if someones grandfather came to this country and had to learn the language and get around the prejudices of the time then they ended up in the poorer paid jobs, this then gives their descendants less opportunity to gain better education than someone in a middle class background, again not fair but also in itself not racist. We as a generation cannot be made to pay for the previous generations problems. b ) There are less black people in this country than white so you could never get an even split, if you did then there would obviously be some form of racism involved (because believe it or not, racism against white people does happen). What can be seen though is that those black members of the country who have gone on and gained a higher level of education have in their careers gone on to be as successful as a white counterpart. Go to the city of London and you'll see many black men and women who are at the top of their careers, running companies and managing multi billion pound share dealings, Im sure they would be horrified if they thought they were there to meet targets or make up the numbers. No they're there because they were the best person for the job. Just as dropping Amdy Faye wouldnt be racist it would be because we had some other player available, personally Id happily ask for volunteers from the crowd before playing him but thats another story. 48814[/snapback] Fair points peasepud. The 'accusation' isnt aimed at anyone. Just thought provoking. However, government and independent statistics show sexism and racism is still rife. There are pro-rata statistics rather than total numbers in work. Examples? Will a black man ever be PM in your lifetime? Will a woman? (if she is like the last one then I hope not) In pay and promotion, blacks and women, pro-rata have more to prove and get less opportunity. Just a national issue and hence we have days like KROF. That is the point. aimed at nobosy but NUFC supporters to generate debate and understanding.

Why don't you name and shame these "unintelligent bairns" then? 48795[/snapback] There is no shame in not being erudite Renton. Nor is there any shame in being young and daft. Ignorance though? That is the issue. 48802[/snapback] It appears everybody on here is ignorant on here except you though. Funny that. 48807[/snapback] Youre getting there Renton. Ignorance doesnt mean 'thick'. Just not aware of. Did you know it was KROF day yesterday? You didnt did you? 48809[/snapback] I know now. You've said it often enough. Personally I don't see what good a KROF will do, especially if the purpose of it is to highlight a problem that doesn't exist. This might surprise you, but I haven't actually heard a racist chant at SJP for 5 years. If I ever did, I would be the first one to tell a steward and get the wanker banned for life. 48816[/snapback] I agree on banning. Gemmill mentioned he had 3 in 2 years. I have heard a lot more but I do listen for it cos I am an awkward twat (I assume you wont argue with that) I have heard people say it next to a steward and get away with it. It needs doing. Sadly it exists all the way through the game and society. Have a nice day.

No. Just a good education helps your cerebral faculty improve.

Why don't you name and shame these "unintelligent bairns" then? 48795[/snapback] There is no shame in not being erudite Renton. Nor is there any shame in being young and daft. Ignorance though? That is the issue. 48802[/snapback] It appears everybody on here is ignorant on here except you though. Funny that. 48807[/snapback] Youre getting there Renton. Ignorance doesnt mean 'thick'. Just not aware of. Did you know it was KROF day yesterday? You didnt did you?

No. I though he said 5 minutes rather than 10. Did you got to the game yesterday? 48794[/snapback] No I was saving lives at work again unfortunately 48801[/snapback] Well, it was very good. We won. 3-2. You posted around the same time as the match funnily enough.