NJS

Ameobi to be released/sold/put down for the good of humanity. Forest to fail in the play-offs Sheff Wed to be relegated Liverpool to miss out on the CL.

There has to be a difference bewteen idealistic ambition and reality. The thrust of LM's argument has always been right - we should expect to be a club that can challenge. Unfortunately apart from a forlorn hope that Ashley will dig deep, there is no source of the necessary money. Once you accept reality you can then talk about realistic ambitions to go with that - even allowing for West Brom and Forest/Whoever, I still think we will struggle to finish above a few teams next year having said that I think we should aim at a "Stoke" etc level but I think we'd be lucky to get there.

Probably said before: Classic Viz tip "Police: save time and arrest the weeping relative from the press conference - they always did it".

I think the problem is that even in a notionally secular country like the UK, people have been brought up to believe that criticising religion is beyond the pale if not completely taboo. I think a lot of people who haven't even considered the arguments find statements like "The God of the old testament was a complete and utter immoral bastard" to be jarring on some level. Of course the internet has meant people have been able to take delight in sometimes causing that kind of offence (I'll hold my own hand up here) but at least this raises the subject. I think first of all we have to get to the point where we can discuss these things without automatic offence being taken but maybe that will take a bit of outrage on both sides first.

This is why it's so fucked up imo - it's perfectly possible for a bloke to be celibate in the intercourse stakes but denying them any form of release (in theory)shows as I said a basic lack of knowledge of humanity. You can imagine the poor bastards being racked by guilt even when they get a hard on never mind have a wet dream. As soon as you teach people that something natural is sinful and sinful = damnation then you mess them up.

The argument is that priests who do have problems (obviously a tiny minority) because of celibacy - including a ban on masturbation - who develop a generally twisted view of sex express that with the only option available - vulnerable people who inhabit their "world" - in other words if there were choir girls then they would be just as likely to be victims.

The best post in this thread. Give some examples of them being annoying. Have they ever said that religious people were less than human? (as Cormac O'Connor said about Atheists) Have they ever ignored the deaths of millions of South Americans and said they were "crying out for Christ" before conquest like Ratzinger?

So homosexuals have sex/relationships with persons of the same sex. Catholic Priests seem to have a penchant for choirboys, so the predator is predating on the same sex, but can't be a homosexual ??? If not, how not. Guardian Article

Exactly - a lot of the founders of the labour movement (and decent liberals in days of yore) were certified "toffs" whose socialism came more from an intellectual source but they didn't play the "one is an ordinary chap" card.

Off the top of my head without quote mining there was the "Call me Dave" campaign and his webcam broadcasts showing him washing dishes at home which I think was shown to be staged. They may be petty but there was a definite aim to make him "ordinary".

I agree but if you play the empathy card as Cameron does, you should be open to question about where that empathy can come from.

Nah it was the Ruskies this time IMO. So on the way to a memorial to acknowledge the massacre of Polish leaders of one kind by the Russians, the current Polish leaders were wiped out by the Russians?

Probably too harsh a word - I'm not celebrating at all but I can understand why some people want to - though anything OTT would soon become stupid.

Blair is very money driven now - probably down to his harpie as much as him. Brown isn't exactly a council house lad but I don't think he's loaded - his dad was a church minister I think.

I don't know why they wouuld be shocked - the church knows absolutely nothing about human sexuality and conbining that with a homophobioc agenda and a need to blame anyone but themselves, t's surprising it's taken this long. Having said that I've seen clips of Irish TV shows in the wake of the Ryan report where bishops said the same thing.

I would add that even a tory hater like me recognised he was being honest in his praise of the NHS when talking about his son who died - but his other common man stuff is utter, utter shit.

Family of stockbrokers according to Wiki - and some grain magnate in the last century. His wife is the daughter of a baronet.

That was the case - signed before the fee rocketed so good business - yeah right.

Don't know about his wife but I'd seen the 30m figure before - inherited of course. He did a token job in PR I think before becoming a politician but he never needed to work.

I think the problem with the Catholic church that makes it different to other churches or religions is that they honestly believe that they are special and above petty concerns like governments or laws. I guess Islam has the concept of universal brotherhood of believers which transcends borders but Catholicism's view of itself is unique. Of course it doesn't help when virtual theocracies like Ireland (until recently) are involved as the state institutions like justice become entwined too much with the churches. I know the respect and reverence for religion will protect the pope but I would love to see him just get a feel for how people think - I'm sure he's a bit like the royal family in having a naive view that everyone loves him. I think arguments about international law and immunity are exactly what's needed to make people question the reverence religious institutions enjoy which is a huge step on the road to more secularisation. I think a reply to "But you can't arrest the pope" of "Why not?" is a good start.

What's the capacity of Anfield? 45,000 and they've only sold out about 6 games. I've said before that my ex-boss (Irish of course) who could never get a ticket for years has been getting begging emails offering tickets for games for about the last 4 years - it started as being just midweek games but now it's all of them except Man U/Everton.

Because every other team in the division were absolutely fucking shit.

And you can think Israel has done some absolutely appalling things without hating Jews.

I think you can use the second season argument to be hopeful about Enrique and Collocini but in general I agree.

"Continuity" would rely on no players going out as well.