Fop 1 Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 (edited) The persecution, subjugation and violence directed at the Palestinians reminds me ever so slightly of a similar thing which happened in Europe about 70 years ago The irony is that the Palestinians were persecuted, subjugated and had violence aimed at them for centuries before Israel was born. Of course that's never mentioned now, Palestine was clearly a land of milk and honey before mid-last century. You've got to admire Hamas though, they play the game so very, very well. They set up their safe-houses and weapons dumps next or even in things like schools, hospitals and residential areas, then fire a few rockets at Israel and then just kick back, relax and wait for the massive PR victory that ensues when Israel retaliates. It's pure genius and it would take Israel to basically accept rocket attacks with no retaliation for months or even years to fail (and that is about the only way peace may ever come about there - but it won't happen for obvious reasons). Edited December 30, 2008 by Fop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manc-mag 1 Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 The persecution, subjugation and violence directed at the Palestinians reminds me ever so slightly of a similar thing which happened in Europe about 70 years ago The irony is that the Palestinians were persecuted, subjugated and had violence aimed at them for centuries before Israel was born. Of course that's never mentioned now, Palestine was clearly a land of milk and honey before mid-last century. You've got to admire Hamas though, they play the game so very, very well. They set up their safe-houses and weapons dumps next or even in things like schools, hospitals and residential areas, then fire a few rockets at Israel and then just kick back, relax and wait for the massive PR victory that ensues when Israel retaliates. It's pure genius and it would take Israel to basically accept rocket attacks with no retaliation for months or even years to fail (and that is about the only way peace may ever come about there - but it won't happen for obvious reasons). Booooo! Hiss! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fop 1 Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 Booooo! Hiss! Not so long ago they were about to be hung by their own people as they couldn't deliver on what was promised when electioneering (partly because of funding issues), fortunately a nice war helps with their ratings. Fortunate coincidence really. :icon_lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acrossthepond 699 Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 yes those poor palestinians who democratically elected a govern whose first aim is to drive israel into the sea and see an end to the nation of israel as a whole. Can't have it both ways tbh, either don't have democratic elections (in which case they're backwards barbarians who will never be modern) or don't cry when they don't go as planned (in which case they're terrorists) Israel has the best security force in the world in the Mossad. I simply reject the idea that Israel can't find and deal with whoever is responsible for the rocket attacks without demolishing the homes, businesses, lives of people who are not involved. That is terrorism, end of story. [/shieldsupcaptain] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fop 1 Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 yes those poor palestinians who democratically elected a govern whose first aim is to drive israel into the sea and see an end to the nation of israel as a whole. Can't have it both ways tbh, either don't have democratic elections (in which case they're backwards barbarians who will never be modern) or don't cry when they don't go as planned (in which case they're terrorists) Democracy is democracy, but it's fine to criticize a regime you don't like (or is it "undemocratic" to whine about Bush?). Israel has the best security force in the world in the Mossad. I simply reject the idea that Israel can't find and deal with whoever is responsible for the rocket attacks without demolishing the homes, businesses, lives of people who are not involved. That is terrorism, end of story. [/shieldsupcaptain] I very much doubt that's true (even ignoring what I mentioned about Hamas earlier), the UK couldn't deal with the IRA in over 30 years and they were largely operating within their own country. They can and do occasionally assassinate leaders, but that achieves very little in the long term, other than continuing the cycle of hate and violence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken 119 Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 There are no good or bad in this. Hamas are getting what they deserve for lobbing rockets into Israel imo, it's not Israel's fault Hamas store them in schools and homes, although the response has obviously been brutal and disproportionate. Hamas and the Palestinian (not all) statement that they are going to 'wipe out the Jews' previously before being elected is a reminder of Holocaust sentiment (which Israel use as a propaganda tool). Israel, or people who support it, saying Palestinians should all be wiped out is no different at all. There'll be a few more hundred that'll die on the Palestinian side with Israel maybe having 5-10 casualties before there is another ceasefire and we can wait for the countdown for the next round of hostilities to begin. Israel only have to give dignity back to the Palestinians for all this to stop. It'll never happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMoog 0 Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 yes those poor palestinians who democratically elected a govern whose first aim is to drive israel into the sea and see an end to the nation of israel as a whole. You can't blame them for that, the Palestinians were there first. Why should Israel be allowed to force themselves on the area? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manc-mag 1 Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 Come on boffins, I want this resolved before page 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fop 1 Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 Come on boffins, I want this resolved before page 3. Nuke the entire area, not only peace in our time, but peace for as long as the lethal radiation lasts. Other than that it's war... war..... war.. cold-war.... war...... war, just like it has been for the last couple of thousand years there (if you destroyed Israel and every Jew in the Middle-East tomorrow there'd just be a Christian/Muslim or ethnic Muslim war within 5-10 years anyway - the only thing that stops that cycle of violence is having a common enemy). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 Why would anyone intervene? Silicon Wadi is the future now all the Russian Jews have put the Palestinians completely out of work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fop 1 Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 Why would anyone intervene? Silicon Wadi is the future now all the Russian Jews have put the Palestinians completely out of work. Just shows what could be done there if you just In fairness there might have been a shot at it (for a while anyway) if Hamas hadn't been elected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fop 1 Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 Using the threat of her singing if they all don't just behave might just work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted December 31, 2008 Author Share Posted December 31, 2008 The persecution, subjugation and violence directed at the Palestinians reminds me ever so slightly of a similar thing which happened in Europe about 70 years ago The irony is that the Palestinians were persecuted, subjugated and had violence aimed at them for centuries before Israel was born. Of course that's never mentioned now, Palestine was clearly a land of milk and honey before mid-last century. You've got to admire Hamas though, they play the game so very, very well. They set up their safe-houses and weapons dumps next or even in things like schools, hospitals and residential areas, then fire a few rockets at Israel and then just kick back, relax and wait for the massive PR victory that ensues when Israel retaliates. It's pure genius and it would take Israel to basically accept rocket attacks with no retaliation for months or even years to fail (and that is about the only way peace may ever come about there - but it won't happen for obvious reasons). You aren't condemning the slaughter then? Furthermore it is rather sad to see you of all people try and reduce this to artifice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted December 31, 2008 Author Share Posted December 31, 2008 yes those poor palestinians who democratically elected a govern whose first aim is to drive israel into the sea and see an end to the nation of israel as a whole. Can't have it both ways tbh, either don't have democratic elections (in which case they're backwards barbarians who will never be modern) or don't cry when they don't go as planned (in which case they're terrorists) Israel has the best security force in the world in the Mossad. I simply reject the idea that Israel can't find and deal with whoever is responsible for the rocket attacks without demolishing the homes, businesses, lives of people who are not involved. That is terrorism, end of story. [/shieldsupcaptain] Totally agree. This is Obama baiting pure and simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted December 31, 2008 Author Share Posted December 31, 2008 There are no good or bad in this. Hamas are getting what they deserve for lobbing rockets into Israel imo, it's not Israel's fault Hamas store them in schools and homes, although the response has obviously been brutal and disproportionate. Hamas and the Palestinian (not all) statement that they are going to 'wipe out the Jews' previously before being elected is a reminder of Holocaust sentiment (which Israel use as a propaganda tool). Israel, or people who support it, saying Palestinians should all be wiped out is no different at all. There'll be a few more hundred that'll die on the Palestinian side with Israel maybe having 5-10 casualties before there is another ceasefire and we can wait for the countdown for the next round of hostilities to begin. Israel only have to give dignity back to the Palestinians for all this to stop. It'll never happen. In the history of conflict peace only comes when the superior force wants it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fop 1 Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 The persecution, subjugation and violence directed at the Palestinians reminds me ever so slightly of a similar thing which happened in Europe about 70 years ago The irony is that the Palestinians were persecuted, subjugated and had violence aimed at them for centuries before Israel was born. Of course that's never mentioned now, Palestine was clearly a land of milk and honey before mid-last century. You've got to admire Hamas though, they play the game so very, very well. They set up their safe-houses and weapons dumps next or even in things like schools, hospitals and residential areas, then fire a few rockets at Israel and then just kick back, relax and wait for the massive PR victory that ensues when Israel retaliates. It's pure genius and it would take Israel to basically accept rocket attacks with no retaliation for months or even years to fail (and that is about the only way peace may ever come about there - but it won't happen for obvious reasons). You aren't condemning the slaughter then? Furthermore it is rather sad to see you of all people try and reduce this to artifice. I just don't see how it can be stopped. Hamas are doing exactly what I said, knowing full well exactly how Israel will react, and wanting that reaction for their own ends. It's very sad, but completely expected, both sides play their game and people get killed for it. There was a brief chance for peace (or at least less violence), but Hamas being elected more or less stopped that. As I said at the present the best thing Hamas can do for themselves in a political sense is keep baiting Israel into slaughter, it strengthens their position domestically and internationally massively. The best thing Israel could do is ignore the rocket attacks, but it would have to do that for months or maybe even years (with Hamas likely getting braver and braver with no retaliation), and they would also worry about other surrounding states seeing them as weak. There is no "right" position in the area (and certainly not from Hamas), only a lot of wrong positions the will probably fuel the violence for a long, long time. And like I said Palestinians were the local whipping boys for centuries long before Israel and the Jews were an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob W 0 Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 There are no good or bad in this. Hamas are getting what they deserve for lobbing rockets into Israel imo, it's not Israel's fault Hamas store them in schools and homes, although the response has obviously been brutal and disproportionate. Hamas and the Palestinian (not all) statement that they are going to 'wipe out the Jews' previously before being elected is a reminder of Holocaust sentiment (which Israel use as a propaganda tool). Israel, or people who support it, saying Palestinians should all be wiped out is no different at all. There'll be a few more hundred that'll die on the Palestinian side with Israel maybe having 5-10 casualties before there is another ceasefire and we can wait for the countdown for the next round of hostilities to begin. Israel only have to give dignity back to the Palestinians for all this to stop. It'll never happen. In the history of conflict peace only comes when the superior force wants it. normally when they're so ground down by the futility of it all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fop 1 Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 This illustrates how savvy these sort of groups are with their political propaganda, PR and spin: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7805077.stm It's not helped by the fact they have the much easier job in stoking up hate than anyone has refuting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted January 1, 2009 Author Share Posted January 1, 2009 (edited) Classroom locked and kids tear gassed. 1.34min in... http://www.consciousmedianetwork.com/video/123008.htm Edited January 1, 2009 by Park Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fop 1 Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 How do you solve it though? In the end you either destroy Israel and kill every Jewish Israeli that doesn't get clear or kill every Palestinian and imported nutter that wants to fight for a "cause", or you just nuke the whole area and give peace a chance...... nothing else will ever work. I think the long term solution to "peace" there will be Israel being utterly crushed eventually (but it will be very long term - even if Obama left Israel hanging today [which he won't] they have enough capability to defend themselves for a long while yet), but it will be a very bloody "peace", and I very much doubt Palestine will be particularly nice place to live, just as it wasn't prior to Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted January 2, 2009 Author Share Posted January 2, 2009 How do you solve it though? In the end you either destroy Israel and kill every Jewish Israeli that doesn't get clear or kill every Palestinian and imported nutter that wants to fight for a "cause", or you just nuke the whole area and give peace a chance...... nothing else will ever work. I think the long term solution to "peace" there will be Israel being utterly crushed eventually (but it will be very long term - even if Obama left Israel hanging today [which he won't] they have enough capability to defend themselves for a long while yet), but it will be a very bloody "peace", and I very much doubt Palestine will be particularly nice place to live, just as it wasn't prior to Israel. An American president with balls could stop it in 24h. Threaten to stop aid and weapons sales. Stop using the U.S. vote in the U.N. to stop motions against Israel. Use the 1967 lines of demarcation for a final settlement. Make sure Palestine has a water supply it doesn't rely on Isreel for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fop 1 Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 How do you solve it though? In the end you either destroy Israel and kill every Jewish Israeli that doesn't get clear or kill every Palestinian and imported nutter that wants to fight for a "cause", or you just nuke the whole area and give peace a chance...... nothing else will ever work. I think the long term solution to "peace" there will be Israel being utterly crushed eventually (but it will be very long term - even if Obama left Israel hanging today [which he won't] they have enough capability to defend themselves for a long while yet), but it will be a very bloody "peace", and I very much doubt Palestine will be particularly nice place to live, just as it wasn't prior to Israel. An American president with balls could stop it in 24h. Threaten to stop aid and weapons sales. Stop using the U.S. vote in the U.N. to stop motions against Israel. Use the 1967 lines of demarcation for a final settlement. Make sure Palestine has a water supply it doesn't rely on Isreel for. Short of pretty much going to war with Israel I don't think they could (I thought Israel had pretty much withdrawn to those line now? ). If Hamas wasn't elected there was 1/2 chance of some sort of peace, but as it stands whilst they might take anything the USA offered they'd still want more, in the end Israel would still be attacked and baited because the political parties involved have no reason interest in anything but continuing the fight with Israel (as they don't exist without that fight) and would settle for nothing less than victory. Yes they might take a ceasefire as they have for the last 6 months, but they just use those to move arms and munitions into the relevant areas, it's got nothing to do with stopping people dying. And if Israel was destroyed utterly tomorrow? There'd be a massive civil war in the area that would make Iraq of 2004 and Lebanon of the 80's look like a childrens scuffle. The irony is the withdrawal of monetary aid was raping Hamas politically, IF Israel could have been big enough to take a few months more of rocket attacks without fighting back (there own internal politics have probably helped stop this) Hamas would maybe lost most of the support they had in the areas..... losing their EU and US cash really fucked off the Palestinian populace and certainly wasn't part of the election manifesto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitman 2188 Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 How do you solve it though? In the end you either destroy Israel and kill every Jewish Israeli that doesn't get clear or kill every Palestinian and imported nutter that wants to fight for a "cause", or you just nuke the whole area and give peace a chance...... nothing else will ever work. I think the long term solution to "peace" there will be Israel being utterly crushed eventually (but it will be very long term - even if Obama left Israel hanging today [which he won't] they have enough capability to defend themselves for a long while yet), but it will be a very bloody "peace", and I very much doubt Palestine will be particularly nice place to live, just as it wasn't prior to Israel. An American president with balls could stop it in 24h. Threaten to stop aid and weapons sales. Stop using the U.S. vote in the U.N. to stop motions against Israel. Use the 1967 lines of demarcation for a final settlement. Make sure Palestine has a water supply it doesn't rely on Isreel for. Have a pig that flies anarl. The US will never do any of those things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trophyshy 6432 Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 Good to see Annie Lennox getting involved. She's evidently the female equivalent of MvB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted January 2, 2009 Author Share Posted January 2, 2009 How do you solve it though? In the end you either destroy Israel and kill every Jewish Israeli that doesn't get clear or kill every Palestinian and imported nutter that wants to fight for a "cause", or you just nuke the whole area and give peace a chance...... nothing else will ever work. I think the long term solution to "peace" there will be Israel being utterly crushed eventually (but it will be very long term - even if Obama left Israel hanging today [which he won't] they have enough capability to defend themselves for a long while yet), but it will be a very bloody "peace", and I very much doubt Palestine will be particularly nice place to live, just as it wasn't prior to Israel. An American president with balls could stop it in 24h. Threaten to stop aid and weapons sales. Stop using the U.S. vote in the U.N. to stop motions against Israel. Use the 1967 lines of demarcation for a final settlement. Make sure Palestine has a water supply it doesn't rely on Isreel for. Have a pig that flies anarl. The US will never do any of those things. I don't think the general populace of the U.S. have a clue (apart from bible class) what the heck is being done by the country that gets the largest amount of U.S. aid on the planet. It might get interesting if they ever had any access to a more balanced media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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