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Israel continues its merciless pounding of the defenceless.


Park Life
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How do you solve it though?

 

 

In the end you either destroy Israel and kill every Jewish Israeli that doesn't get clear or kill every Palestinian and imported nutter that wants to fight for a "cause", or you just nuke the whole area and give peace a chance...... nothing else will ever work.

 

 

I think the long term solution to "peace" there will be Israel being utterly crushed eventually (but it will be very long term - even if Obama left Israel hanging today [which he won't] they have enough capability to defend themselves for a long while yet), but it will be a very bloody "peace", and I very much doubt Palestine will be particularly nice place to live, just as it wasn't prior to Israel.

 

An American president with balls could stop it in 24h.

 

Threaten to stop aid and weapons sales.

 

Stop using the U.S. vote in the U.N. to stop motions against Israel.

 

Use the 1967 lines of demarcation for a final settlement.

 

Make sure Palestine has a water supply it doesn't rely on Isreel for.

 

Short of pretty much going to war with Israel I don't think they could (I thought Israel had pretty much withdrawn to those line now? :icon_lol: ).

 

 

 

If Hamas wasn't elected there was 1/2 chance of some sort of peace, but as it stands whilst they might take anything the USA offered they'd still want more, in the end Israel would still be attacked and baited because the political parties involved have no reason interest in anything but continuing the fight with Israel (as they don't exist without that fight) and would settle for nothing less than victory.

 

Yes they might take a ceasefire as they have for the last 6 months, but they just use those to move arms and munitions into the relevant areas, it's got nothing to do with stopping people dying.

 

 

And if Israel was destroyed utterly tomorrow? There'd be a massive civil war in the area that would make Iraq of 2004 and Lebanon of the 80's look like a childrens scuffle.

 

 

 

 

 

The irony is the withdrawal of monetary aid was raping Hamas politically, IF Israel could have been big enough to take a few months more of rocket attacks without fighting back (there own internal politics have probably helped stop this) Hamas would maybe lost most of the support they had in the areas..... losing their EU and US cash really fucked off the Palestinian populace and certainly wasn't part of the election manifesto.

 

Basically they had to elect a Govt the U.s. and Israel liked....WTF!!

 

Not sure what you mean about civil war?

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How do you solve it though?

 

 

In the end you either destroy Israel and kill every Jewish Israeli that doesn't get clear or kill every Palestinian and imported nutter that wants to fight for a "cause", or you just nuke the whole area and give peace a chance...... nothing else will ever work.

 

 

I think the long term solution to "peace" there will be Israel being utterly crushed eventually (but it will be very long term - even if Obama left Israel hanging today [which he won't] they have enough capability to defend themselves for a long while yet), but it will be a very bloody "peace", and I very much doubt Palestine will be particularly nice place to live, just as it wasn't prior to Israel.

 

An American president with balls could stop it in 24h.

 

Threaten to stop aid and weapons sales.

 

Stop using the U.S. vote in the U.N. to stop motions against Israel.

 

Use the 1967 lines of demarcation for a final settlement.

 

Make sure Palestine has a water supply it doesn't rely on Isreel for.

 

yes, they could stop aid and weapons sales. But at the end of the day, what does an Israel unable to defend itself lead to ? You can't expect them to allow themselves to be shot at. Which of course, is what virtually the whole of the middle east wants.

Edited by LeazesMag
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How do you solve it though?

 

 

In the end you either destroy Israel and kill every Jewish Israeli that doesn't get clear or kill every Palestinian and imported nutter that wants to fight for a "cause", or you just nuke the whole area and give peace a chance...... nothing else will ever work.

 

 

I think the long term solution to "peace" there will be Israel being utterly crushed eventually (but it will be very long term - even if Obama left Israel hanging today [which he won't] they have enough capability to defend themselves for a long while yet), but it will be a very bloody "peace", and I very much doubt Palestine will be particularly nice place to live, just as it wasn't prior to Israel.

 

An American president with balls could stop it in 24h.

 

Threaten to stop aid and weapons sales.

 

Stop using the U.S. vote in the U.N. to stop motions against Israel.

 

Use the 1967 lines of demarcation for a final settlement.

 

Make sure Palestine has a water supply it doesn't rely on Isreel for.

 

Short of pretty much going to war with Israel I don't think they could (I thought Israel had pretty much withdrawn to those line now? :icon_lol: ).

 

 

 

If Hamas wasn't elected there was 1/2 chance of some sort of peace, but as it stands whilst they might take anything the USA offered they'd still want more, in the end Israel would still be attacked and baited because the political parties involved have no reason interest in anything but continuing the fight with Israel (as they don't exist without that fight) and would settle for nothing less than victory.

 

Yes they might take a ceasefire as they have for the last 6 months, but they just use those to move arms and munitions into the relevant areas, it's got nothing to do with stopping people dying.

 

 

And if Israel was destroyed utterly tomorrow? There'd be a massive civil war in the area that would make Iraq of 2004 and Lebanon of the 80's look like a childrens scuffle.

 

 

 

 

 

The irony is the withdrawal of monetary aid was raping Hamas politically, IF Israel could have been big enough to take a few months more of rocket attacks without fighting back (there own internal politics have probably helped stop this) Hamas would maybe lost most of the support they had in the areas..... losing their EU and US cash really fucked off the Palestinian populace and certainly wasn't part of the election manifesto.

 

Basically they had to elect a Govt the U.s. and Israel liked....WTF!!

 

Not sure what you mean about civil war?

 

 

Aye, but they effectively elected a Government that was at war with the West - which shows how little appetite for peace there is on either side (until they realised it would cut their $$$'s off, anyway, which then massively undermined Hamas support until Hamas managed to engineer yet another war).

 

I don't think there's anyone that actually wants peace in the area.

 

The only thing holding off massive conflict in the area is Israel, get rid of that common enemy and Palestine goes back to being a region football as it was before Israel was founded, which is one of the many things that bemuses me, the area was a complete shithole and the Palestinians treated like dogs by everyone in the area for centurys. Israel is just continuing the traditions, only with a slightly different religious point of view.

 

It sucks, but I really don't see how anyone is going to "solve" it until Israel is eventually utterly destroyed and all Jews within exterminated - and even then I would expect to see the resultant area carved up between the victorious local powers of the area, not formed into a Palestinian state, which would likely result in yet more war there.

Edited by Fop
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How do you solve it though?

 

 

In the end you either destroy Israel and kill every Jewish Israeli that doesn't get clear or kill every Palestinian and imported nutter that wants to fight for a "cause", or you just nuke the whole area and give peace a chance...... nothing else will ever work.

 

 

I think the long term solution to "peace" there will be Israel being utterly crushed eventually (but it will be very long term - even if Obama left Israel hanging today [which he won't] they have enough capability to defend themselves for a long while yet), but it will be a very bloody "peace", and I very much doubt Palestine will be particularly nice place to live, just as it wasn't prior to Israel.

 

An American president with balls could stop it in 24h.

 

Threaten to stop aid and weapons sales.

 

Stop using the U.S. vote in the U.N. to stop motions against Israel.

 

Use the 1967 lines of demarcation for a final settlement.

 

Make sure Palestine has a water supply it doesn't rely on Isreel for.

 

Short of pretty much going to war with Israel I don't think they could (I thought Israel had pretty much withdrawn to those line now? :icon_lol: ).

 

 

 

If Hamas wasn't elected there was 1/2 chance of some sort of peace, but as it stands whilst they might take anything the USA offered they'd still want more, in the end Israel would still be attacked and baited because the political parties involved have no reason interest in anything but continuing the fight with Israel (as they don't exist without that fight) and would settle for nothing less than victory.

 

Yes they might take a ceasefire as they have for the last 6 months, but they just use those to move arms and munitions into the relevant areas, it's got nothing to do with stopping people dying.

 

 

And if Israel was destroyed utterly tomorrow? There'd be a massive civil war in the area that would make Iraq of 2004 and Lebanon of the 80's look like a childrens scuffle.

 

 

 

 

 

The irony is the withdrawal of monetary aid was raping Hamas politically, IF Israel could have been big enough to take a few months more of rocket attacks without fighting back (there own internal politics have probably helped stop this) Hamas would maybe lost most of the support they had in the areas..... losing their EU and US cash really fucked off the Palestinian populace and certainly wasn't part of the election manifesto.

 

Basically they had to elect a Govt the U.s. and Israel liked....WTF!!

 

Not sure what you mean about civil war?

 

 

Aye, but they effectively elected a Government that was at war with the West - which shows how little appetite for peace there is on either side (until they realised it would cut their $$$'s off, anyway, which then massively undermined Hamas support until Hamas managed to engineer yet another war).

 

I don't think there's anyone that actually wants peace in the area.

 

The only thing holding off massive conflict in the area is Israel, get rid of that common enemy and Palestine goes back to being a region football as it was before Israel was founded, which is one of the many things that bemuses me, the area was a complete shithole and the Palestinians treated like dogs by everyone in the area for centurys. Israel is just continuing the traditions, only with a slightly different religious point of view.

 

It sucks, but I really don't see how anyone is going to "solve" it until Israel is eventually utterly destroyed and all Jews within exterminated - and even then I would expect to see the resultant area carved up between the victorious local powers of the area, not formed into a Palestinian state, which would likely result in yet more war there.

 

yes I agree with that.

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Sorry Fop are we talking about the same area where a smaller number of Jews lived peacefully with other religions for a century or more?

 

Before the first world war about 80,000 Jews lived more or less peacefully side by side with 500,000 arabs.

 

So I don't believe they can't live together at all.

Edited by Park Life
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People who called themselves Palestinians still lived there even if a state called 'Palestine' didn't exist. Basically land was taken away by the west and given solely to the Jewish people to set up their own homeland at the expense of those already living there. The arbitrary manner in which this was done is the cause of many of the problems now taking place in the region. Incidentally, if we are to rely solely on ancient boundaries, Jerusalem was never part of Israel."

 

Alex 2006

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Sorry Fop are we talking about the same area where a smaller number of Jews lived peacefully with other religions for a century or more?

 

Before the first world war about 80,000 Jews lived more or less peacefully side by side with 500,000 arabs.

 

So I don't believe they can't live together at all.

 

Not going to happen, was a chance years ago when Israels actions were the "excuse" for fundamentalist Islam, unfortunately peace didn't happen and now the fundamentalists have a momentum of their own. Israel (and the west) is reaping what it sowed but at least Israel's got the means/will to deal with it. Electing Hamas was the death knell for the Palestinians.

 

Even if we could magically create a Palestine with local autonomy/freedom etc, there wouldn't be peace, Iran has no interest in losing it's defacto way of waging war on Israel, there's no will for peace on either side. Israel now needs to defend itself out of necessity (rather than because it's flexing regional muscle).

 

Until fundamentalist Islam is irradicated (and there's no sign of that happening) it's going to get messier yet.

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Sorry Fop are we talking about the same area where a smaller number of Jews lived peacefully with other religions for a century or more?

 

Before the first world war about 80,000 Jews lived more or less peacefully side by side with 500,000 arabs.

 

So I don't believe they can't live together at all.

 

 

 

Sorry but that's just not true. :icon_lol:

 

 

It was under Ottoman rule then and they didn't even recognised it as a specific area (there was no "Palestine" then - it was divided up into 3 areas between regional sub-powers - which is what would happen if Israel were to be destroyed now), so it was basically squashed under the over all rule of a Superpower, divided between local bigger powers, and wasn't a nice place to live at all.

 

 

Like I said this "milk and honey" view of "Palestine" is one that has basically been made up in the last 30 years and one which seems to be eagerly swallowed in some parts of the West - despite being utterly and completely false.

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UNITED NATIONS – The U.N. Security Council scheduled emergency consultations Saturday night to address the escalation of violence in Gaza, and Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon urged an immediate halt to Israel's ground operation.

 

The decision to hold consulations came after Israeli tanks and infantry rolled into Gaza in a ground offensive in a widening war against Hamas.

 

Ban said in a statement that he was "deeply concerned over the serious further escalation" of violence in Gaza.

 

The statement said Ban had spoken with Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert "and conveyed his extreme concern and disappointment" at the invasion.

 

Ban "is convinced and alarmed that this escalation will inevitably increase the already heavy suffering of the affected civilian populations" and "called for an immediate end to the ground operation," the statement said.

 

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and several Arab foreign ministers are flying to New York over the weekend to urge the Security Council to adopt an Arab draft resolution that would condemn Israel and demand a halt to its bombing campaign in Gaza.

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Sorry Fop are we talking about the same area where a smaller number of Jews lived peacefully with other religions for a century or more?

 

Before the first world war about 80,000 Jews lived more or less peacefully side by side with 500,000 arabs.

 

So I don't believe they can't live together at all.

 

 

 

Sorry but that's just not true. :(

 

 

It was under Ottoman rule then and they didn't even recognised it as a specific area (there was no "Palestine" then - it was divided up into 3 areas between regional sub-powers - which is what would happen if Israel were to be destroyed now), so it was basically squashed under the over all rule of a Superpower, divided between local bigger powers, and wasn't a nice place to live at all.

 

 

Like I said this "milk and honey" view of "Palestine" is one that has basically been made up in the last 30 years and one which seems to be eagerly swallowed in some parts of the West - despite being utterly and completely false.

 

 

Not talking about maps and post offices, talking about people living side by side.

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Sorry Fop are we talking about the same area where a smaller number of Jews lived peacefully with other religions for a century or more?

 

Before the first world war about 80,000 Jews lived more or less peacefully side by side with 500,000 arabs.

 

So I don't believe they can't live together at all.

 

 

 

Sorry but that's just not true. :(

 

 

It was under Ottoman rule then and they didn't even recognised it as a specific area (there was no "Palestine" then - it was divided up into 3 areas between regional sub-powers - which is what would happen if Israel were to be destroyed now), so it was basically squashed under the over all rule of a Superpower, divided between local bigger powers, and wasn't a nice place to live at all.

 

 

Like I said this "milk and honey" view of "Palestine" is one that has basically been made up in the last 30 years and one which seems to be eagerly swallowed in some parts of the West - despite being utterly and completely false.

 

 

Not talking about maps and post offices, talking about people living side by side.

 

 

Aye, but as I said they do now, in Israel in many, many cases.

 

However it's a complete myth that the place was this milk and honey nirvana of "Palestine" (or likely ever will be either) - certainly in any time remotely close to the formation of Israel.

 

And what else is the continuing "war" about? If not maps and post offices? (at least to fuel the hate - Israel has given some massive concessions recently, it was enough for Fatah and with them there might be peace, but it was NOT enough for Hamas and likely never will be)

 

 

 

 

 

 

The whole thing is deeply sad, but unless both sides (and their sponsors) have a massive change of heart this will just keep going on for a very, very long time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And let's not forget that Fatah and Hamas fought each other in some very bloody fighting there very recently, which again just goes to show what it's all about and how hard it will ever be to stop. :)

Edited by Fop
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Depleted uranium found in Gaza victims

Sun, 04 Jan 2009 13:16:21 GMT

Medics tell Press TV they have found traces of depleted uranium in some Gazan residents wounded in Israel's ground offensive into the strip.

 

Norwegian medics told Press TV correspondent Akram al-Sattari that some of the victims who have been wounded since Israel began its attacks on the Gaza Strip on December 27 have traces of depleted uranium in their bodies.

 

The report comes after Israeli tanks and troops swept across the border into Gaza on Saturday night, opening a ground operation after eight days of intensive attacks by Israeli air and naval forces on the impoverished region.

 

Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak warned on Sunday that the wide-ranging ground offensive in the Gaza Strip would be "full of surprises."

 

A ground offensive in the densely-populated Gaza is expected to drastically increase the death toll of the civilian population.

 

The latest assaults bring the number of Palestinians killed to over 488 with 2790 others wounded. The UN says that about 25 percent of the casualties were civilian deaths - including at least 34 children.

 

According to Israeli army officials, at least 30 of its soldiers have been wounded since the start of the ground campaign.

 

Amid global condemnation of the ongoing violence in the region, the UN Security Council failed to agree on a united approach to resolve the crisis.

 

" Once again, the world is watching in dismay the dysfunctionality of the Security Council," UN General Assembly chief Miguel d'Escoto said Sunday.

 

According to diplomatic sources, the US blocked a Security Council resolution, with US Deputy Ambassador Alejandro Wolff arguing that an official statement that criticizes both Israel and Hamas would not be helpful.

 

The White House has so far declined to comment on whether an Israeli ground incursion into Gaza is a justified measure.

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Depleted uranium found in Gaza victims

Sun, 04 Jan 2009 13:16:21 GMT

Medics tell Press TV they have found traces of depleted uranium in some Gazan residents wounded in Israel's ground offensive into the strip.

 

Norwegian medics told Press TV correspondent Akram al-Sattari that some of the victims who have been wounded since Israel began its attacks on the Gaza Strip on December 27 have traces of depleted uranium in their bodies.

 

The report comes after Israeli tanks and troops swept across the border into Gaza on Saturday night, opening a ground operation after eight days of intensive attacks by Israeli air and naval forces on the impoverished region.

 

Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak warned on Sunday that the wide-ranging ground offensive in the Gaza Strip would be "full of surprises."

 

A ground offensive in the densely-populated Gaza is expected to drastically increase the death toll of the civilian population.

 

The latest assaults bring the number of Palestinians killed to over 488 with 2790 others wounded. The UN says that about 25 percent of the casualties were civilian deaths - including at least 34 children.

 

According to Israeli army officials, at least 30 of its soldiers have been wounded since the start of the ground campaign.

 

Amid global condemnation of the ongoing violence in the region, the UN Security Council failed to agree on a united approach to resolve the crisis.

 

" Once again, the world is watching in dismay the dysfunctionality of the Security Council," UN General Assembly chief Miguel d'Escoto said Sunday.

 

According to diplomatic sources, the US blocked a Security Council resolution, with US Deputy Ambassador Alejandro Wolff arguing that an official statement that criticizes both Israel and Hamas would not be helpful.

 

The White House has so far declined to comment on whether an Israeli ground incursion into Gaza is a justified measure.

 

Depleted uranium rounds are standard issue for many infantry and tank regiments nowadays I think.

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For Hamas, the definition of victory will be that they can they fight on at the end of all this; for Israel it will be the stopping of rocket fire from Gaza.

 

Pretty much sums it up, and also sums up why it'll never stop.

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For Hamas, the definition of victory will be that they can they fight on at the end of all this; for Israel it will be the stopping of rocket fire from Gaza.

 

Pretty much sums it up, and also sums up why it'll never stop.

 

 

It will stop when Iran/an.other nuke Israel.

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O little town of Bethlehem,

How still we see thee lie!

Above thy deep and dreamless sleep

The silent stars go by;

Yet in thy dark streets shineth

The everlasting Light;

The hopes and fears of all the years

Are met in thee to-night.

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O little town of Bethlehem,

How still we see thee lie!

Above thy deep and dreamless sleep

The silent stars go by;

Yet in thy dark streets shineth

The everlasting Light;

The hopes and fears of all the years

Are met in thee to-night.

 

Nice thoughts.

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For Hamas, the definition of victory will be that they can they fight on at the end of all this; for Israel it will be the stopping of rocket fire from Gaza.

 

Pretty much sums it up, and also sums up why it'll never stop.

 

 

It will stop when Iran/an.other nuke Israel.

 

 

Yeah that's what I said before is the best chance for "peace" in the Middle-East, nuclear annihilation. Harsh, but sadly true. :(

 

 

 

 

Although as Iran "aren't" developing nuclear weapons (and neither are Syria) it may be a long wait. :) (alternatively we may see a nuclear war kick of there within 10 years)

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For Hamas, the definition of victory will be that they can they fight on at the end of all this; for Israel it will be the stopping of rocket fire from Gaza.

 

Pretty much sums it up, and also sums up why it'll never stop.

 

 

It will stop when Iran/an.other nuke Israel.

 

 

Yeah that's what I said before is the best chance for "peace" in the Middle-East, nuclear annihilation. Harsh, but sadly true. :)

 

 

 

 

Although as Iran "aren't" developing nuclear weapons (and neither are Syria) it may be a long wait. :) (alternatively we may see a nuclear war kick of there within 10 years)

 

Time is speeding up.

 

The numbers gain pace on the words.

 

The balance between the two will break. :(

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Israeli forces split Gaza in two

 

Fighting is raging into the night in the Gaza Strip, where Israeli ground forces and heavy armour have effectively cut the territory in two.

 

Supported by a naval, air and land bombardment, they have taken up positions on either side of Gaza City and along a major east-west road.

 

About 40 tanks were moving towards Khan Younis in the south, reports say.

 

Palestinian officials say 70 people have been killed in the ground assault. One Israeli soldier has been killed.

 

Earlier, US Vice-President Dick Cheney defended the Israeli ground offensive, saying air attacks were not enough to destroy rocket sites. He also said Israel had not sought US approval launching it.

 

Israeli President Shimon Peres rejected calls for a ceasefire, but said his country did not intend to re-occupy Gaza or crush Hamas.

 

The Palestinian Authority President, Mahmoud Abbas, said he was doing all he could to stop Israel's "vicious aggression".

An EU mission has flown to the region. The bloc's foreign policy chief, Javier Solana, said the crisis represented a failure of diplomacy.

 

At least 32 missiles were fired into southern Israel from Gaza on Sunday. Two people were lightly wounded in the Eshkol region, while one woman was slightly injured in Sderot.

 

As night fell, blackouts plunged much of Gaza into darkness. However, the flashes of explosions could be seen from the northern border, and the regular sounds of gun and artillery fire heard.

 

During the day, the fighting appeared to move away from the northern end of the territory, towards more populous areas in the west, correspondents say.

 

Later, Israeli military sources and witnesses said Israeli tanks and heavy armour had taken up positions on either side of Gaza City, in effect cutting Gaza into two parts, from the Karni crossing to the Mediterranean Sea.

 

The town of Beit Hanoun was also reportedly surrounded.

 

Hamas officials and witnesses report major fighting in five areas: east of the Jabaliya refugee camp; in the Zeitoun area; near the site of the former Jewish settlement of Netzarim; in the centre of Gaza; and on the outskirts of Khan Younis.

 

Hamas said its fighters were in some cases engaged in "face-to-face battles" with Israeli soldiers.

 

Earlier, the Israeli military said the militants were not engaging its troops in close combat but using mortars and improvised bombs.

 

The Palestinian health ministry says 509 Palestinians, mostly civilians, have been killed since the Israelis began their assault on Gaza eight days ago.

 

It says 21 of the 70 people killed since the beginning of the ground offensive were children. Some 2,500 people have reportedly also been wounded.

 

The figures could not be independently verified. Israel is refusing to let international journalists into Gaza despite a ruling by its a supreme court to admit a limited number of reporters.

 

Hamas officials say that 10 of its fighters have so far been killed.

 

The Israeli military says one of its soldiers has been killed and 34 wounded in the ground offensive, three of them seriously.

 

It believes about 80% of the Palestinians killed were Hamas members.

 

The BBC's Rushdi Abu Alouf in Gaza City says the fighting and Israeli positions have stopped desperately needed medical supplies getting through to hospitals that are struggling to cope with the casualties.

 

The aid agency Oxfam said a paramedic working for a partner organisation had been killed and two others injured by an Israeli shell.

 

Oxfam said it had been forced to suspend its work, apart from emergency medical aid, because the "trickle of humanitarian aid that Israel has sometimes allowed in" had dried up since the start of the ground offensive.

 

The Israeli government says 400 truckloads of humanitarian aid has been allowed into Gaza since the operation began.

 

Many agencies say deliveries have been insufficient, and that it is difficult to get supplies to where they are most needed.

 

The main aid crossing point at Rafah has also been closed while Israel troops attempt to destroy tunnels under the border with Egypt.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7810804.stm

 

:(

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Hamas said its fighters were in some cases engaged in "face-to-face battles" with Israeli soldiers.

 

Earlier, the Israeli military said the militants were not engaging its troops in close combat but using mortars and improvised bombs.

 

That bit shows the importance of the real war, the propaganda war.

 

The people actually being killed are irrelevant to that. :(

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Hamas said its fighters were in some cases engaged in "face-to-face battles" with Israeli soldiers.

 

Earlier, the Israeli military said the militants were not engaging its troops in close combat but using mortars and improvised bombs.

 

That bit shows the importance of the real war, the propaganda war.

 

The people actually being killed are irrelevant to that. :(

 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/worl...icle5420868.ece

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