Winston Churchill

[Park Life 71]

The British have been incredibly inventive and have contributed one hell of a lot to the world of Science and Technology, but to imply that this means the US somehow were reliant on us for these things is idiocy.

 

Of the top of my head, the Americans have been responsible for the first manned flight, first mass production of the car and many other consumer goods, most modern military technology, development of the computer and internet, and development of the first fission and fusion nuclear bombs. Not to mention the small feat of landing a man on the moon. They are also responsible for the majority of science and medical publications, although we punch above our weight on that score too.

 

All the rocket tech and nukes they got from Germans. The first road cars were also invented by Germans, Benz if I iirc..I thought Konrad Zuse (yes Renton not an american name ) the GERMAN invented the first computer in 1936...

 

Soooo, I'll give you consumer goods.

 

Is there really any point of the likes of you and tooner posting in this thread, it is beyond doubt you are both ridiculously knowledgeless...

 

Peace.

 

 

.....because I don't have the seething hatred of americans that you do, I am clueless?......ok, whatever.

 

"Seething hatred"..

 

In the defence of America I will say that the PEOPLE often in times of trouble and need show a very big heart and genorosity." [Parky/]

 

I merely present facts dear. Deal wiv it. Whatever.

Edited March 10, 2010 by Park Life

[tooner 243]

The British have been incredibly inventive and have contributed one hell of a lot to the world of Science and Technology, but to imply that this means the US somehow were reliant on us for these things is idiocy.

 

Of the top of my head, the Americans have been responsible for the first manned flight, first mass production of the car and many other consumer goods, most modern military technology, development of the computer and internet, and development of the first fission and fusion nuclear bombs. Not to mention the small feat of landing a man on the moon. They are also responsible for the majority of science and medical publications, although we punch above our weight on that score too.

 

All the rocket tech and nukes they got from Germans. The first road cars were also invented by Germans, Benz if I iirc..I thought Konrad Zuse (yes Renton not an american name ) the GERMAN invented the first computer in 1936...

 

Soooo, I'll give you consumer goods.

 

Is there really any point of the likes of you and tooner posting in this thread, it is beyond doubt you are both ridiculously knowledgeless...

 

Peace.

 

 

.....because I don't have the seething hatred of americans that you do, I am clueless?......ok, whatever.

 

"Seething hatred"..

 

In the defence of America I will say that the PEOPLE often in times of trouble and need show a very big heart and genorosity." [Parky/]

 

I merely present facts dear. Deal wiv it. Whatever.

Let's put the wars aside a minute the criminal, fraudulent and destructive american banking system is single handedly fucking up the financial viability of 3/4 of the planet. It is the worlds biggest polluter bar none, it is the first worlds most undereducated country by a mile....IT IS A FUCKING BASKET CASE.

 

I can only think some people in this thread are watching Top Gun round the clock.

 

 

.....well maybe not seething but but you've got some issues with america.

 

as I stated before i don't condone or side with american foreign policy or military actions, my point was only that the outcome of the second world war was due to the co-operation of ALL the allied countries and any attempt at detracting from or qualifying the contribution from any allied country does a dis-service and dishonor to the 100,000's of people from those countries who gave there lives.

 

.....so whatEVAR.

[Renton 18088]

Common theme with some people on this board like - if you disagree, you are clueless. Even if your point of view is the widely accepted version of reality and you can back it with evidence, whereas the 'clued up' people clearly have prejudicial agendas against certain countries and can't back anything they say up.

 

You should regard it as a honour to branded 'knowledgeless' from Parky tooner, he seems like a nice guy but is sadly detached from reality.

[Park Life 71]

Common theme with some people on this board like - if you disagree, you are clueless. Even if your point of view is the widely accepted version of reality and you can back it with evidence, whereas the 'clued up' people clearly have prejudicial agendas against certain countries and can't back anything they say up.

 

You should regard it as a honour to branded 'knowledgeless' from Parky tooner, he seems like a nice guy but is sadly detached from reality.

 

I go easy on you these days....I've noticed vulernabilities it would seem crass and unethical to exploit.

[Park Life 71]

The British have been incredibly inventive and have contributed one hell of a lot to the world of Science and Technology, but to imply that this means the US somehow were reliant on us for these things is idiocy.

 

Of the top of my head, the Americans have been responsible for the first manned flight, first mass production of the car and many other consumer goods, most modern military technology, development of the computer and internet, and development of the first fission and fusion nuclear bombs. Not to mention the small feat of landing a man on the moon. They are also responsible for the majority of science and medical publications, although we punch above our weight on that score too.

 

All the rocket tech and nukes they got from Germans. The first road cars were also invented by Germans, Benz if I iirc..I thought Konrad Zuse (yes Renton not an american name ) the GERMAN invented the first computer in 1936...

 

Soooo, I'll give you consumer goods.

 

Is there really any point of the likes of you and tooner posting in this thread, it is beyond doubt you are both ridiculously knowledgeless...

 

Peace.

 

 

.....because I don't have the seething hatred of americans that you do, I am clueless?......ok, whatever.

 

"Seething hatred"..

 

In the defence of America I will say that the PEOPLE often in times of trouble and need show a very big heart and genorosity." [Parky/]

 

I merely present facts dear. Deal wiv it. Whatever.

Let's put the wars aside a minute the criminal, fraudulent and destructive american banking system is single handedly fucking up the financial viability of 3/4 of the planet. It is the worlds biggest polluter bar none, it is the first worlds most undereducated country by a mile....IT IS A FUCKING BASKET CASE.

 

I can only think some people in this thread are watching Top Gun round the clock.

 

 

.....well maybe not seething but but you've got some issues with america.

 

as I stated before i don't condone or side with american foreign policy or military actions, my point was only that the outcome of the second world war was due to the co-operation of ALL the allied countries and any attempt at detracting from or qualifying the contribution from any allied country does a dis-service and dishonor to the 100,000's of people from those countries who gave there lives.

 

.....so whatEVAR.

 

I can't remember are you Canadian?

[tooner 243]

The British have been incredibly inventive and have contributed one hell of a lot to the world of Science and Technology, but to imply that this means the US somehow were reliant on us for these things is idiocy.

 

Of the top of my head, the Americans have been responsible for the first manned flight, first mass production of the car and many other consumer goods, most modern military technology, development of the computer and internet, and development of the first fission and fusion nuclear bombs. Not to mention the small feat of landing a man on the moon. They are also responsible for the majority of science and medical publications, although we punch above our weight on that score too.

 

All the rocket tech and nukes they got from Germans. The first road cars were also invented by Germans, Benz if I iirc..I thought Konrad Zuse (yes Renton not an american name ) the GERMAN invented the first computer in 1936...

 

Soooo, I'll give you consumer goods.

 

Is there really any point of the likes of you and tooner posting in this thread, it is beyond doubt you are both ridiculously knowledgeless...

 

Peace.

 

 

.....because I don't have the seething hatred of americans that you do, I am clueless?......ok, whatever.

 

"Seething hatred"..

 

In the defence of America I will say that the PEOPLE often in times of trouble and need show a very big heart and genorosity." [Parky/]

 

I merely present facts dear. Deal wiv it. Whatever.

Let's put the wars aside a minute the criminal, fraudulent and destructive american banking system is single handedly fucking up the financial viability of 3/4 of the planet. It is the worlds biggest polluter bar none, it is the first worlds most undereducated country by a mile....IT IS A FUCKING BASKET CASE.

 

I can only think some people in this thread are watching Top Gun round the clock.

 

 

.....well maybe not seething but but you've got some issues with america.

 

as I stated before i don't condone or side with american foreign policy or military actions, my point was only that the outcome of the second world war was due to the co-operation of ALL the allied countries and any attempt at detracting from or qualifying the contribution from any allied country does a dis-service and dishonor to the 100,000's of people from those countries who gave there lives.

 

.....so whatEVAR.

 

I can't remember are you Canadian?

 

 

you cheeky fucking prick......

 

I am.......and I will apologize for any undue amount of flag waving i've done recently, been caught up in the hoo-haw of canadian pride left-over from the olympics.

Edited March 10, 2010 by tooner

[Park Life 71]

 

You should know the yanks are eyeing all that fresh clean water you guys have.

Edited March 10, 2010 by Park Life

[Cid_MCDP 0]

The British have been incredibly inventive and have contributed one hell of a lot to the world of Science and Technology, but to imply that this means the US somehow were reliant on us for these things is idiocy.

 

Of the top of my head, the Americans have been responsible for the first manned flight, first mass production of the car and many other consumer goods, most modern military technology, development of the computer and internet, and development of the first fission and fusion nuclear bombs. Not to mention the small feat of landing a man on the moon. They are also responsible for the majority of science and medical publications, although we punch above our weight on that score too.

 

All the rocket tech and nukes they got from Germans. The first road cars were also invented by Germans, Benz if I iirc..I thought Konrad Zuse (yes Renton not an american name ) the GERMAN invented the first computer in 1936...

 

Soooo, I'll give you consumer goods.

 

Is there really any point of the likes of you and tooner posting in this thread, it is beyond doubt you are both ridiculously knowledgeless...

 

Peace.

 

 

.....because I don't have the seething hatred of americans that you do, I am clueless?......ok, whatever.

 

"Seething hatred"..

 

In the defence of America I will say that the PEOPLE often in times of trouble and need show a very big heart and genorosity." [Parky/]

 

I merely present facts dear. Deal wiv it. Whatever.

Let's put the wars aside a minute the criminal, fraudulent and destructive american banking system is single handedly fucking up the financial viability of 3/4 of the planet. It is the worlds biggest polluter bar none, it is the first worlds most undereducated country by a mile....IT IS A FUCKING BASKET CASE.

 

I can only think some people in this thread are watching Top Gun round the clock.

 

 

.....well maybe not seething but but you've got some issues with america.

 

as I stated before i don't condone or side with american foreign policy or military actions, my point was only that the outcome of the second world war was due to the co-operation of ALL the allied countries and any attempt at detracting from or qualifying the contribution from any allied country does a dis-service and dishonor to the 100,000's of people from those countries who gave there lives.

 

.....so whatEVAR.

 

I can't remember are you Canadian?

 

 

you cheeky fucking prick......

 

I am.......and I will apologize for any undue amount of flag waving i've done recently, been caught up in the hoo-haw of canadian pride left-over from the olympics.

 

 

Sidney Crosby broke my heart on 28 Feb 10.

 

Helluva game though. Probably the best hockey game I've ever seen in my life (barring of course, the Miracle). Congrats on the gold- you deserved it (well, maybe not Broduer... !

[PaddockLad 14944]

The British have been incredibly inventive and have contributed one hell of a lot to the world of Science and Technology, but to imply that this means the US somehow were reliant on us for these things is idiocy.

 

Of the top of my head, the Americans have been responsible for the first manned flight, first mass production of the car and many other consumer goods, most modern military technology, development of the computer and internet, and development of the first fission and fusion nuclear bombs. Not to mention the small feat of landing a man on the moon. They are also responsible for the majority of science and medical publications, although we punch above our weight on that score too.

 

All the rocket tech and nukes they got from Germans. The first road cars were also invented by Germans, Benz if I iirc..I thought Konrad Zuse (yes Renton not an american name ) the GERMAN invented the first computer in 1936...

 

Soooo, I'll give you consumer goods.

 

Is there really any point of the likes of you and tooner posting in this thread, it is beyond doubt you are both ridiculously knowledgeless...

 

Peace.

 

 

.....because I don't have the seething hatred of americans that you do, I am clueless?......ok, whatever.

 

"Seething hatred"..

 

In the defence of America I will say that the PEOPLE often in times of trouble and need show a very big heart and genorosity." [Parky/]

 

I merely present facts dear. Deal wiv it. Whatever.

Let's put the wars aside a minute the criminal, fraudulent and destructive american banking system is single handedly fucking up the financial viability of 3/4 of the planet. It is the worlds biggest polluter bar none, it is the first worlds most undereducated country by a mile....IT IS A FUCKING BASKET CASE.

 

I can only think some people in this thread are watching Top Gun round the clock.

 

 

.....well maybe not seething but but you've got some issues with america.

 

as I stated before i don't condone or side with american foreign policy or military actions, my point was only that the outcome of the second world war was due to the co-operation of ALL the allied countries and any attempt at detracting from or qualifying the contribution from any allied country does a dis-service and dishonor to the 100,000's of people from those countries who gave there lives.

 

.....so whatEVAR.

 

I can't remember are you Canadian?

 

 

you cheeky fucking prick......

 

I am.......and I will apologize for any undue amount of flag waving i've done recently, been caught up in the hoo-haw of canadian pride left-over from the olympics.

 

 

Sidney Crosby broke my heart on 28 Feb 10.

 

Helluva game though. Probably the best hockey game I've ever seen in my life (barring of course, the Miracle). Congrats on the gold- you deserved it (well, maybe not Broduer... !

 

That was a good game of ice hockey?....first time I've tried to watch it on tv and I thought it was barely watchable...for me its basically too fast for a decent televised sport. Is this a common thing the uninitiated say or is it just a fuckin crap spectator sport anyway?

 

ps I like Americans in general, when you go there they are much nicer and better people than the impression you get through the media/tv or those loud fuckers on bus tours with tartan trousers and 15 cameras round their necks

[tooner 243]

The British have been incredibly inventive and have contributed one hell of a lot to the world of Science and Technology, but to imply that this means the US somehow were reliant on us for these things is idiocy.

 

Of the top of my head, the Americans have been responsible for the first manned flight, first mass production of the car and many other consumer goods, most modern military technology, development of the computer and internet, and development of the first fission and fusion nuclear bombs. Not to mention the small feat of landing a man on the moon. They are also responsible for the majority of science and medical publications, although we punch above our weight on that score too.

 

All the rocket tech and nukes they got from Germans. The first road cars were also invented by Germans, Benz if I iirc..I thought Konrad Zuse (yes Renton not an american name ) the GERMAN invented the first computer in 1936...

 

Soooo, I'll give you consumer goods.

 

Is there really any point of the likes of you and tooner posting in this thread, it is beyond doubt you are both ridiculously knowledgeless...

 

Peace.

 

 

.....because I don't have the seething hatred of americans that you do, I am clueless?......ok, whatever.

 

"Seething hatred"..

 

In the defence of America I will say that the PEOPLE often in times of trouble and need show a very big heart and genorosity." [Parky/]

 

I merely present facts dear. Deal wiv it. Whatever.

Let's put the wars aside a minute the criminal, fraudulent and destructive american banking system is single handedly fucking up the financial viability of 3/4 of the planet. It is the worlds biggest polluter bar none, it is the first worlds most undereducated country by a mile....IT IS A FUCKING BASKET CASE.

 

I can only think some people in this thread are watching Top Gun round the clock.

 

 

.....well maybe not seething but but you've got some issues with america.

 

as I stated before i don't condone or side with american foreign policy or military actions, my point was only that the outcome of the second world war was due to the co-operation of ALL the allied countries and any attempt at detracting from or qualifying the contribution from any allied country does a dis-service and dishonor to the 100,000's of people from those countries who gave there lives.

 

.....so whatEVAR.

 

I can't remember are you Canadian?

 

 

you cheeky fucking prick......

 

I am.......and I will apologize for any undue amount of flag waving i've done recently, been caught up in the hoo-haw of canadian pride left-over from the olympics.

 

 

Sidney Crosby broke my heart on 28 Feb 10.

 

Helluva game though. Probably the best hockey game I've ever seen in my life (barring of course, the Miracle). Congrats on the gold- you deserved it (well, maybe not Broduer... !

 

That was a good game of ice hockey?....first time I've tried to watch it on tv and I thought it was barely watchable...for me its basically too fast for a decent televised sport. Is this a common thing the uninitiated say or is it just a fuckin crap spectator sport anyway?

 

ps I like Americans in general, when you go there they are much nicer and better people than the impression you get through the media/tv or those loud fuckers on bus tours with tartan trousers and 15 cameras round their necks

 

 

hahahaha...yeah its hard to watch for the uninitiated, always been the problem with the shit TV ratings it gets in the states. They tried to put a "comet tail" on the puck to make it more TV friendly and easier to see for hockey noobies, but the NHL board of directors quashed that as it made it look like a piece of shit. Agreed about americans the vast majority i have met, in my travels and during a short stint living in Vermont, have been amazing people with interesting points of view.

 

CID...helluva game eh? I thought it was going to go in favour of you guys when it got tied up........ala Junior Championships, my old man thought the same told he went and turned on the BBQ when they scored, figured it was all over.

[Cid_MCDP 0]

The British have been incredibly inventive and have contributed one hell of a lot to the world of Science and Technology, but to imply that this means the US somehow were reliant on us for these things is idiocy.

 

Of the top of my head, the Americans have been responsible for the first manned flight, first mass production of the car and many other consumer goods, most modern military technology, development of the computer and internet, and development of the first fission and fusion nuclear bombs. Not to mention the small feat of landing a man on the moon. They are also responsible for the majority of science and medical publications, although we punch above our weight on that score too.

 

All the rocket tech and nukes they got from Germans. The first road cars were also invented by Germans, Benz if I iirc..I thought Konrad Zuse (yes Renton not an american name ) the GERMAN invented the first computer in 1936...

 

Soooo, I'll give you consumer goods.

 

Is there really any point of the likes of you and tooner posting in this thread, it is beyond doubt you are both ridiculously knowledgeless...

 

Peace.

 

 

.....because I don't have the seething hatred of americans that you do, I am clueless?......ok, whatever.

 

"Seething hatred"..

 

In the defence of America I will say that the PEOPLE often in times of trouble and need show a very big heart and genorosity." [Parky/]

 

I merely present facts dear. Deal wiv it. Whatever.

Let's put the wars aside a minute the criminal, fraudulent and destructive american banking system is single handedly fucking up the financial viability of 3/4 of the planet. It is the worlds biggest polluter bar none, it is the first worlds most undereducated country by a mile....IT IS A FUCKING BASKET CASE.

 

I can only think some people in this thread are watching Top Gun round the clock.

 

 

.....well maybe not seething but but you've got some issues with america.

 

as I stated before i don't condone or side with american foreign policy or military actions, my point was only that the outcome of the second world war was due to the co-operation of ALL the allied countries and any attempt at detracting from or qualifying the contribution from any allied country does a dis-service and dishonor to the 100,000's of people from those countries who gave there lives.

 

.....so whatEVAR.

 

I can't remember are you Canadian?

 

 

you cheeky fucking prick......

 

I am.......and I will apologize for any undue amount of flag waving i've done recently, been caught up in the hoo-haw of canadian pride left-over from the olympics.

 

 

Sidney Crosby broke my heart on 28 Feb 10.

 

Helluva game though. Probably the best hockey game I've ever seen in my life (barring of course, the Miracle). Congrats on the gold- you deserved it (well, maybe not Broduer... !

 

That was a good game of ice hockey?....first time I've tried to watch it on tv and I thought it was barely watchable...for me its basically too fast for a decent televised sport. Is this a common thing the uninitiated say or is it just a fuckin crap spectator sport anyway?

 

ps I like Americans in general, when you go there they are much nicer and better people than the impression you get through the media/tv or those loud fuckers on bus tours with tartan trousers and 15 cameras round their necks

 

 

hahahaha...yeah its hard to watch for the uninitiated, always been the problem with the shit TV ratings it gets in the states. They tried to put a "comet tail" on the puck to make it more TV friendly and easier to see for hockey noobies, but the NHL board of directors quashed that as it made it look like a piece of shit. Agreed about americans the vast majority i have met, in my travels and during a short stint living in Vermont, have been amazing people with interesting points of view.

 

CID...helluva game eh? I thought it was going to go in favour of you guys when it got tied up........ala Junior Championships, my old man thought the same told he went and turned on the BBQ when they scored, figured it was all over.

 

The comet tail did look like a piece of shit. I thought it was fine when it was glowing, but when they added the algorithm that turned it into a comet if the puck was traveling at x miles per hour, it got silly. Partially because there was about a .2 ms delay on when the comet tail would appear (thereby leaving this big red streak on your TV just as the cameraman was panning away from it), partially because it was just silly to begin with.

 

Hockey is much more enjoyable live than on TV. I realize that most sports are like that, but hockey is much more so. All the stations for years have gone with the traditional east-west, side to side pan for hockey games. Video games (nearly all of them) take an overhead, north-south type view of the ice. Why? Because it's a much better angle for seeing what's going on. If the NHL would cough up a few bucks and invest in those overheard wire cameras like they use in Champions League matches, I think hockey would become much more appealing because people could actually see what's going on. The main thing I hear my friends say when watching a game on TV is "Why do they shoot the puck into the other end and don't even try to get it?" On TV, you can't tell that the team is changing lines, so an important and necessary facet of the game is just completely lost on the average TV viewer. Live, you see them jumping over the boards and it doesn't seem like a lazy or silly thing to do with the puck at all.

 

As for the game, I was happy we tied it up obviously, but knowing that the Olympics use the 4-on-4 format in overtime like a regular season NHL match, I knew we'd be in trouble. Our boys worked well as a team, but individually, the Canadians were MUCH more talented, and when you've got that bigger ice to begin with... well, let's just say that it didn't really surprise me when we lost. As far as the WJCs, I wasn't all that surprised we won. We have a decent youth squad and the best young Canadian kids are all in the NHL anyway. A lot of American hockey fans I know were really giving Canadians a hard time on the hockey boards I frequent, and it's like, "Dude- do you really think we'd have won if Stamkos, Tavares, and Doughty were out there playing for Canada? Really?" It's a nice thing to see because it shows that USA Hockey seems to have finally figured out how to develop the kids, but it wasn't a reason to run into the street like the gold medal game would have been.

[Guest alex]

Fwiw, I enjoyed the game. The result helped

[Guest alex]

I propose the American dream will be exosed as a myth in times to come, one certainly that had a very short shelf life. It is the case that the war itself destroyed all our fiancial might however and with that our ability to take the commonwealth to the next level as a worldwide trading and ideas board.

In the defence of America I will say that the PEOPLE often in times of trouble and need show a very big heart and genorosity.

 

Detroit: the last days

Detroit is a city in terminal decline. When film director Julien Temple arrived in town, he was shocked by what he found – but he also uncovered reasons for hope.

Julien Temple

 

Vegetation engulfs an abandoned car wash in Detroit. Photograph: Films of Record

 

When the film- maker Roger Graef approached me last year to make a film about the rise and fall of Detroit I had very few preconceptions about the place. Like everyone else, I knew it as the Motor City, one of the great epicentres of 20th-century music, and home of the American automobile. Only when I arrived in the city itself did the full-frontal cultural car crash that is 21st-century Detroit became blindingly apparent.

 

Leaving behind the gift shops of the "Big Three" car manufacturers, the Motown merchandise and the bizarre ejaculating fountains of the now-notorious international airport, things become stranger and stranger. The drive along eerily empty ghost freeways into the ruins of inner-city Detroit is an Alice-like journey into a severely dystopian future. Passing the giant rubber tyre that dwarfs the nonexistent traffic in ironic testament to the busted hubris of Motown's auto-makers, the city's ripped backside begins to glide past outside the windows.

 

Like The Passenger, it's hard to believe what we're seeing. The vast, rusting hulks of abandoned car plants, (some of the largest structures ever built and far too expensive to pull down), beached amid a shining sea of grass. The blackened corpses of hundreds of burned-out houses, pulled back to earth by the green tentacles of nature. Only the drunken rows of telegraph poles marching away across acres of wildflowers and prairie give any clue as to where teeming city streets might once have been.

 

Approaching the derelict shell of downtown Detroit, we see full-grown trees sprouting from the tops of deserted skyscrapers. In their shadows, the glazed eyes of the street zombies slide into view, stumbling in front of the car. Our excitement at driving into what feels like a man-made hurricane Katrina is matched only by sheer disbelief that what was once the fourth-largest city in the US could actually be in the process of disappearing from the face of the earth. The statistics are staggering – 40sq miles of the 139sq mile inner city have already been reclaimed by nature.

 

One in five houses now stand empty. Property prices have fallen 80% or more in Detroit over the last three years. A three-bedroom house on Albany Street is still on the market for $1.

 

Unemployment has reached 30%; 33.8% of Detroit's population and 48.5% of its children live below the poverty line. Forty-seven per cent of adults in Detroit are functionally illiterate; 29 Detroit schools closed in 2009 alone.

 

But statistics tell only one part of the story. The reality of Detroit is far more visceral. My producer, George Hencken, and I drove around recce-ing our film, getting out of the car and photographing extraordinary places to film with mad-dog enthusiasm – everywhere demands to be filmed – but were greeted with appalled concern by Bradley, our friendly manager, on our return to the hotel. "Never get out of the car in that area – people have been car-jacked and shot."

 

Law and order has completely broken down in the inner city, drugs and prostitution are rampant and unless you actually murder someone the police will leave you alone. This makes it great for filming – park where you like, film what you like – but not so good if you actually live there. The abandoned houses make great crack dens and provide cover for appalling sex crimes and child abduction. The only growth industry is the gangs of armed scrappers, who plunder copper and steel from the ruins. Rabid dogs patrol the streets. All the national supermarket chains have pulled out of the inner city. People have virtually nowhere to buy fresh produce. Starbucks? Forget it.

 

What makes all this so hard to understand is that Detroit was the frontier city of the American Dream – not just the automobile, but pretty much everything we associate with 20th-century western civilisation came from there. Mass production; assembly lines; stop lights; freeways; shopping malls; suburbs and an emerging middle-class workforce: all these things were pioneered in Detroit.

 

But the seeds of the Motor City's downfall were sown a long time ago. The blind belief of the Big Three in the automobile as an inexhaustible golden goose, guaranteeing endless streams of cash, resulted in the city becoming reliant on a single industry. Its destiny fatally entwined with that of the car. The greed-fuelled willingness of the auto barons to siphon up black workers from the American south to man their Metropolis-like assembly lines and then treat them as subhuman citizens, running the city along virtually apartheid lines, created a racial tinderbox. The black riots of 1943 and 1967 gave Detroit the dubious distinction of being the only American city to twice call in the might of the US army to suppress insurrection on its own streets and led directly to the disastrous so-called white flight of the 50s, 60s and 70s.

 

The population of Detroit is now 81.6% African-American and almost two-thirds down on its overall peak in the early 50s. The city has lost its tax base and cannot afford to cut the grass or light its streets, let alone educate or feed its citizens. The rest of the US is in denial about the economic catastrophe that has engulfed Detroit, terrified that this man-made contagion may yet spread to other US cities. But somehow one cannot imagine the same fate befalling a city with a predominantly white population.

 

On many levels Detroit seems to be an insoluble disaster with urgent warnings for the rest of the industrialised world. But as George and I made our film we discovered, to our surprise, an irrepressible positivity in the city. Unable to buy fresh food for their children, people are now growing their own, turning the demolished neighbourhood blocks into urban farms and kick-starting what is now the fastest-growing movement across the US. Although the city is still haemorrhaging population, young people from all over the country are also flooding into Detroit – artists, musicians and social pioneers, all keen to make use of the abandoned urban spaces and create new ways of living together.

 

With the breakdown of 20th-century civilisation, many Detroiters have discovered an exhilarating sense of starting over, building together a new cross-racial community sense of doing things, discarding the bankrupt rules of the past and taking direct control of their own lives. Still at the forefront of the American Dream, Detroit is fast becoming the first "post-American" city. And amid the ruins of the Motor City it is possible to find a first pioneer's map to the post-industrial future that awaits us all.

 

So perhaps Detroit can avoid the fate of the lost cities of the Maya and rise again like the phoenix that sits, appropriately, on its municipal crest. That is why George and I decided to call our film Requiem for Detroit? – with a big question mark at the end.

 

 

Requiem for Detroit? is on BBC2 on Saturday 13 March at 9pm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2010/mar/10...y-urban-decline

 

Should be worth a watch. It's a city that fascinates me particularly because of its musical heritage, coupled with my love of soul and techno.

[Park Life 71]

Good find Alex.

[Guest alex]

Good find Alex.

Some of those stats are appalling like, aren't they?

[Renton 18088]

Good find Alex.

 

Aye, must remember to record that.

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3284]

Apparently also caused many of the problems in the Middle East which are still haunting us today.

[ChezGiven 0]

Apparently also caused many of the problems in the Middle East which are still haunting us today.

 

Utter dribbling nonsense. The middle east was divided by religion.

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3284]

Apparently also caused many of the problems in the Middle East which are still haunting us today.

 

Utter dribbling nonsense. The middle east was divided by religion.

 

In 1921 as Secretary of State for the COlonies Churchill carved up the Middle East and chose members of Aristocratic Families to become the kings of the countries which made up Britains land Bridge to India. These included Iran, Iraq and Egypt. Part of the problems which led to the fall of the Shah and the ascension of the Islamic Republic was the simmering resentment of a ruler who did not belong. The same for the revolutions in Iraq and Egypt. Churchills actions have had serious repercussions since.

[NJS 4017]

Apparently also caused many of the problems in the Middle East which are still haunting us today.

 

Utter dribbling nonsense. The middle east was divided by religion.

 

In 1921 as Secretary of State for the COlonies Churchill carved up the Middle East and chose members of Aristocratic Families to become the kings of the countries which made up Britains land Bridge to India. These included Iran, Iraq and Egypt. Part of the problems which led to the fall of the Shah and the ascension of the Islamic Republic was the simmering resentment of a ruler who did not belong. The same for the revolutions in Iraq and Egypt. Churchills actions have had serious repercussions since.

 

Was that when he proposed gassing the Kurds as they were less than human or other such choice phrase?

 

Edit:

 

I do not understand this squeamishness about the use of gas. We have definitely adopted the position at the Peace Conference of arguing in favour of the retention of gas as a permanent method of warfare. It is sheer affectation to lacerate a man with the poisonous fragment of a bursting shell and to boggle at making his eyes water by means of teargas. I am strongly in favour of using poisoned[79] gas against uncivilised tribes. The moral effect should be so good that the loss of life should be reduced to a minimum. It is not necessary to use only the most deadly gasses: gasses can be used which cause great inconvenience and would spread a lively terror and yet would leave no serious permanent effects on most of those affected.

 

In the end they didn't use the gas for "technical reasons".

Edited March 12, 2010 by NJS

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3284]

Apparently also caused many of the problems in the Middle East which are still haunting us today.

 

Utter dribbling nonsense. The middle east was divided by religion.

 

In 1921 as Secretary of State for the COlonies Churchill carved up the Middle East and chose members of Aristocratic Families to become the kings of the countries which made up Britains land Bridge to India. These included Iran, Iraq and Egypt. Part of the problems which led to the fall of the Shah and the ascension of the Islamic Republic was the simmering resentment of a ruler who did not belong. The same for the revolutions in Iraq and Egypt. Churchills actions have had serious repercussions since.

 

Was that when he proposed gassing the Kurds as they were less than human or other such choice phrase?

 

Edit:

 

I do not understand this squeamishness about the use of gas. We have definitely adopted the position at the Peace Conference of arguing in favour of the retention of gas as a permanent method of warfare. It is sheer affectation to lacerate a man with the poisonous fragment of a bursting shell and to boggle at making his eyes water by means of teargas. I am strongly in favour of using poisoned[79] gas against uncivilised tribes. The moral effect should be so good that the loss of life should be reduced to a minimum. It is not necessary to use only the most deadly gasses: gasses can be used which cause great inconvenience and would spread a lively terror and yet would leave no serious permanent effects on most of those affected.

 

In the end they didn't use the gas for "technical reasons".

 

Yes it was.

[Cid_MCDP 0]

Good find Alex.

Some of those stats are appalling like, aren't they?

 

Y'know, for reals, if I ever took a couple of you guys down to East St. Louis, you wouldn't be at all surprised why we don't have stuff like nationalized health care.

 

I used to go into East Saint like 2 or 3 times a week in the late 90's when I was working for a computer services outfit. I honestly didn't think places like that existed in the U.S. It was like driving through a warzone- no street signs, burned-out buildings tangled in vegetation, no painted traffic lines on the roads.

 

It was unreal- public libraries and schools that never turned on their lights because their budgets didn't afford it. The main hospital had an emergency room entrance with cameras and a buzzer system to open the door. The projects had fences and gates around them, and just like the hospital, you had to be buzzed in (course, I saw people actually jump the fences as I was standing, waiting to get in, lol). One old guy who was a minister at a nearby church asked me to park at the church and walk down the street to his house (it was about half a block away). The reason? He didn't want me parking the computer van in his driveway- then everyone would know he had computer equipment in his house (and would come steal them).

 

The first time I went down there to work on a printer, I asked the client for directions to his business. He gave me a burned down building as a navigational landmark. Crazy, right? The fucked up thing was when I got there, I wasn't sure which burned down building he meant- there were several.

 

I used to believe that if somebody hadn't made something of himself, it was largely due to the individual. After working in and around East Saint for a couple of years, I realized there are more people in this country who are completely and totally fucked at birth than anyone would care to admit.

 

And from reading that bit about Detroit, it actually sounds worse.

Edited March 12, 2010 by Cid_MCDP

[ChezGiven 0]

Apparently also caused many of the problems in the Middle East which are still haunting us today.

 

Utter dribbling nonsense. The middle east was divided by religion.

 

In 1921 as Secretary of State for the COlonies Churchill carved up the Middle East and chose members of Aristocratic Families to become the kings of the countries which made up Britains land Bridge to India. These included Iran, Iraq and Egypt. Part of the problems which led to the fall of the Shah and the ascension of the Islamic Republic was the simmering resentment of a ruler who did not belong. The same for the revolutions in Iraq and Egypt. Churchills actions have had serious repercussions since.

 

No you've lost me. Britain (not Churchill, who was only a minister at the time) had been fucking about in the middle east since well before that. I also dont in any way see the connection between the installation of a leader who many nationalists consider the father of modern Iran and the issues in the middle east i.e. Jerusalem, Palestine, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, the crusades, the holy sites etc

 

I'm very aware of Britain's role in the middle east but to blame 'many of the problems' in the region on Churchill is as i said.

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3284]

Apparently also caused many of the problems in the Middle East which are still haunting us today.

 

Utter dribbling nonsense. The middle east was divided by religion.

 

In 1921 as Secretary of State for the COlonies Churchill carved up the Middle East and chose members of Aristocratic Families to become the kings of the countries which made up Britains land Bridge to India. These included Iran, Iraq and Egypt. Part of the problems which led to the fall of the Shah and the ascension of the Islamic Republic was the simmering resentment of a ruler who did not belong. The same for the revolutions in Iraq and Egypt. Churchills actions have had serious repercussions since.

 

No you've lost me. Britain (not Churchill, who was only a minister at the time) had been fucking about in the middle east since well before that. I also dont in any way see the connection between the installation of a leader who many nationalists consider the father of modern Iran and the issues in the middle east i.e. Jerusalem, Palestine, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, the crusades, the holy sites etc

 

I'm very aware of Britain's role in the middle east but to blame 'many of the problems' in the region on Churchill is as i said.

 

It was Churchills decision as Secretary of state for the Colonies to impose these people as rulers. What part of that do you not understand?

The people of these countries were extremely unhappy as these rulers ran the countries for the benefit of themselves and Britain (later America who continued to prop up these unwanted governments) and so got pissed off and created revolutions which in Iran led to the Ayotollahs and in Iraq eventually led to the rule of Saddam Hussein. What part of that do you not understand?

[ChezGiven 0]

Apparently also caused many of the problems in the Middle East which are still haunting us today.

 

Utter dribbling nonsense. The middle east was divided by religion.

 

In 1921 as Secretary of State for the COlonies Churchill carved up the Middle East and chose members of Aristocratic Families to become the kings of the countries which made up Britains land Bridge to India. These included Iran, Iraq and Egypt. Part of the problems which led to the fall of the Shah and the ascension of the Islamic Republic was the simmering resentment of a ruler who did not belong. The same for the revolutions in Iraq and Egypt. Churchills actions have had serious repercussions since.

 

No you've lost me. Britain (not Churchill, who was only a minister at the time) had been fucking about in the middle east since well before that. I also dont in any way see the connection between the installation of a leader who many nationalists consider the father of modern Iran and the issues in the middle east i.e. Jerusalem, Palestine, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, the crusades, the holy sites etc

 

I'm very aware of Britain's role in the middle east but to blame 'many of the problems' in the region on Churchill is as i said.

 

It was Churchills decision as Secretary of state for the Colonies to impose these people as rulers. What part of that do you not understand?

The people of these countries were extremely unhappy as these rulers ran the countries for the benefit of themselves and Britain (later America who continued to prop up these unwanted governments) and so got pissed off and created revolutions which in Iran led to the Ayotollahs and in Iraq eventually led to the rule of Saddam Hussein. What part of that do you not understand?

The bit where you blame the problems of the middle east on Churchill.