England

[Tooj 17]

Kind of like the Super Soldiers on the X-Files?

[NJS 3986]

Two points on Asians

 

I was at university in Bradford 30 years ago and young kids certainly played football in the back lanes just as we did - don't know whether its supressed as they get older by the families but I'm surprised there's been no progress on that front.

 

Also a mate of mines a Blackburn fan who reckons they've bent over backwards trying to involve th community there with very little success.

 

It's a shame as footballs a good bridge compared with others like alcohol with its obvious drawback.

[Park Life 70]

When The Observer asked Fabio Capello why the English system is failing to generate young players of the calibre of Thomas Müller and Mesut Ozil the England manager swivelled in his chair and raised four fingers. An innocuous question had touched a nerve.

"They [Germany] play players with different passports. Khedira, Podolski, Ozil, Boateng," the England manager said. "Germany didn't produce good players for a long time. I spoke with Stuart [Pearce, the England Under-21 manager] and the Germans have players coming from U21. Technically they are very good. We hope to find the same in England but you have to understand in Germany there are 70 million people. In England there are 60 million but for me one of the reasons is that there are only 38% English players in the Premier League."

This bizarre and contentious answer suggests Germany crushed England 4-1 in last Sunday's second-round tie in Bloemfontein because they have raided foreign talent pools. At least it made a change from blaming "tiredness" and the referee. Capello is evidently unaware that England's cricket team could easily be renamed "South Africa in Exile", or that English rugby's Riki Flutey turned out for New Zealand Maori (the All Black second string) before pinning a red rose to his shirt and graduating to the British and Irish Lions. But with this latest shimmy to deflect the blame Capello could yet start a move away from the mono-national make-up of the team he manages. Should England naturalise top young foreign players from the big Premier League clubs?

First, though, back to Germany. From Capello's list, Jérôme Boateng was born to a German mother and Ghanaian father; Lukas Podolski and Miroslav Klose popped out in Poland. Ozil is the son of a Turkish Gastarbeiter (guest worker); Khedira was born in Stuttgart to a Tunisian father and German mother. Cacau, meanwhile, is a Brazilian who acquired a German passport last spring.

Seeking clarification on their policy on integration I asked Wolfgang Niersbach, the general secretary of the DFB, who said: "Situated in the very centre of Europe, there is no doubt that Germany has certain melting pot features, with people from many nationalities and of different ethnic backgrounds living together.

"Mesut Ozil, whose family has lived in Gelsenkirchen in the Ruhr area for three generations now, is a case in point. We know that many young players of Turkish descent preserve strong ties to the country of their fathers, so that when the time came for Mesut to decide which country to play for we deliberately refrained from exerting even the slightest pressure.

"The DFB has made integration a key item on its sports-political agenda, and quite a lot of young players are beginning to reward these efforts by declaring their preference for Germany, just like Ozil, Khedira, Boateng and many others."

While oversimplifying the German stance Capello has expressed strong opposition to the idea that English football should follow cricket and rugby down the road of passport pragmatism. Owen Hargreaves remains a one-off. Born in Calgary, Canada, to a Welsh mother and English father, Hargreaves came through the German system before declaring an allegiance to his current home.

The rule in the UK is that a visitor can apply for British citizenship after six years of residency, or three if he has a native spouse. England's void at left midfield, for instance, would be solved by the appropriation of Everton's Mikel Arteta, who represented Spain at U21 level but is now eligible to switch to his adopted country.

When Manuel Almunia, the Arsenal goalkeeper, expressed an urge to become an honorary Englishman the response was broadly hostile. A Peter Schmeichel would have encountered less resistance. It may take a world-class youngster to dissolve this opposition. Cesc Fábregas joined Arsenal at 16, seven years ago. If the Football Association adopted the more opportunistic German approach the best young imports could yet be reinvented as Englishmen and Britain's immigrant communities brought more into the fold.

"Some of the young players produced in the Premier League are Welsh and some are Irish but not English," Capello clattered on. "In the Premier League, 38% of English players; this is the big problem because other countries are 68, 69, 70%. At AC Milan when I was in the academy we produced seven players who went through into the senior team but now there is no one. The same for Manchester United. You have to be lucky sometimes to have the moment when players are coming. At the moment there are none.

"[sir] Dave Richards [the Club England chairman] asked me what I thought about the next tournament and the young players we might have to bring through, like Adam Johnson. Joe Hart will play next season for a really important team."

For Capello to be citing Bobby Zamora as a solution to England's skills gap justifies the suspicion that 44 years of underachievement will stretch beyond half a century. "There must be a good crop of kids out there, otherwise how would we have been so successful at those age levels?" asks Emile Heskey, not unreasonably. "James Milner has been promoted to the senior squad and done well. So I think the future is in good hands but I must admit when you don't see too many young English players in the Premier League you do become worried."

In this diverse society we still see an ethnically narrow England team.

[PaddockLad 14655]

Germany is developing youth players from all over eastern europe with an eye to them graduating to the German side. This is a fact and part of the programme set up in 2000 when there was a shortage of German talent. I live here and I know what's going on and what the Germans are upto. You live in NZ you clown.

 

Has that contributed to the make up of the current squad though?....or the French side that won the WC in 98, which was largely made up of immigrants' kids?...you're making out all this is new but its frankly bollocks. Fair enough, Germany are doing all that in Eastern Europe as we speak, but its not had an effect as yet. Its down to the kids of Immigrants who came to the country for work atm.See also John Barnes,Paul Parker,David Rocastle,Paul Davis, Oxlade-Chamberlain's old man got a few England caps and wasnt here because the FA spotted him and bribed his parents to come. All that was 30 years ago ffs.

[Park Life 70]

Has that contributed to the make up of the current squad though?....or the French side that won the WC in 98, which was largely made up of immigrants' kids?...you're making out all this is new but its frankly bollocks. Fair enough, Germany are doing all that in Eastern Europe as we speak, but its not had an effect as yet. Its down to the kids of Immigrants who came to the country for work atm.See also John Barnes,Paul Parker,David Rocastle,Paul Davis, Oxlade-Chamberlain's old man got a few England caps and wasnt here because the FA spotted him and bribed his parents to come. All that was 30 years ago ffs.

 

There were less foreign players here in the 80's, things could be left to chance. It's no longer the case. The FA like the Germans have to be proactive or admit Eng will never again win a major tournament. Ever.

 

For one the strict finance rules in Germany makes it impossible to spend on massive wages and have debt. That cuts out a lot of fly-by-night foreign talent at a swoop.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Park Life

[PaddockLad 14655]

"Mesut Ozil, whose family has lived in Gelsenkirchen in the Ruhr area for three generations now, is a case in point. We know that many young players of Turkish descent preserve strong ties to the country of their fathers, so that when the time came for Mesut to decide which country to play for we deliberately refrained from exerting even the slightest pressure.

 

Hoisted by your own petard there old son...and he had a choice of countries to represent too..

[McFaul 35]

When The Observer asked Fabio Capello why the English system is failing to generate young players of the calibre of Thomas Müller and Mesut Ozil the England manager swivelled in his chair and raised four fingers. An innocuous question had touched a nerve.

"They [Germany] play players with different passports. Khedira, Podolski, Ozil, Boateng," the England manager said. "Germany didn't produce good players for a long time. I spoke with Stuart [Pearce, the England Under-21 manager] and the Germans have players coming from U21. Technically they are very good. We hope to find the same in England but you have to understand in Germany there are 70 million people. In England there are 60 million but for me one of the reasons is that there are only 38% English players in the Premier League."

This bizarre and contentious answer suggests Germany crushed England 4-1 in last Sunday's second-round tie in Bloemfontein because they have raided foreign talent pools. At least it made a change from blaming "tiredness" and the referee. Capello is evidently unaware that England's cricket team could easily be renamed "South Africa in Exile", or that English rugby's Riki Flutey turned out for New Zealand Maori (the All Black second string) before pinning a red rose to his shirt and graduating to the British and Irish Lions. But with this latest shimmy to deflect the blame Capello could yet start a move away from the mono-national make-up of the team he manages. Should England naturalise top young foreign players from the big Premier League clubs?

First, though, back to Germany. From Capello's list, Jérôme Boateng was born to a German mother and Ghanaian father; Lukas Podolski and Miroslav Klose popped out in Poland. Ozil is the son of a Turkish Gastarbeiter (guest worker); Khedira was born in Stuttgart to a Tunisian father and German mother. Cacau, meanwhile, is a Brazilian who acquired a German passport last spring.

Seeking clarification on their policy on integration I asked Wolfgang Niersbach, the general secretary of the DFB, who said: "Situated in the very centre of Europe, there is no doubt that Germany has certain melting pot features, with people from many nationalities and of different ethnic backgrounds living together.

"Mesut Ozil, whose family has lived in Gelsenkirchen in the Ruhr area for three generations now, is a case in point. We know that many young players of Turkish descent preserve strong ties to the country of their fathers, so that when the time came for Mesut to decide which country to play for we deliberately refrained from exerting even the slightest pressure.

"The DFB has made integration a key item on its sports-political agenda, and quite a lot of young players are beginning to reward these efforts by declaring their preference for Germany, just like Ozil, Khedira, Boateng and many others."

While oversimplifying the German stance Capello has expressed strong opposition to the idea that English football should follow cricket and rugby down the road of passport pragmatism. Owen Hargreaves remains a one-off. Born in Calgary, Canada, to a Welsh mother and English father, Hargreaves came through the German system before declaring an allegiance to his current home.

The rule in the UK is that a visitor can apply for British citizenship after six years of residency, or three if he has a native spouse. England's void at left midfield, for instance, would be solved by the appropriation of Everton's Mikel Arteta, who represented Spain at U21 level but is now eligible to switch to his adopted country.

When Manuel Almunia, the Arsenal goalkeeper, expressed an urge to become an honorary Englishman the response was broadly hostile. A Peter Schmeichel would have encountered less resistance. It may take a world-class youngster to dissolve this opposition. Cesc Fábregas joined Arsenal at 16, seven years ago. If the Football Association adopted the more opportunistic German approach the best young imports could yet be reinvented as Englishmen and Britain's immigrant communities brought more into the fold.

"Some of the young players produced in the Premier League are Welsh and some are Irish but not English," Capello clattered on. "In the Premier League, 38% of English players; this is the big problem because other countries are 68, 69, 70%. At AC Milan when I was in the academy we produced seven players who went through into the senior team but now there is no one. The same for Manchester United. You have to be lucky sometimes to have the moment when players are coming. At the moment there are none.

"[sir] Dave Richards [the Club England chairman] asked me what I thought about the next tournament and the young players we might have to bring through, like Adam Johnson. Joe Hart will play next season for a really important team."

For Capello to be citing Bobby Zamora as a solution to England's skills gap justifies the suspicion that 44 years of underachievement will stretch beyond half a century. "There must be a good crop of kids out there, otherwise how would we have been so successful at those age levels?" asks Emile Heskey, not unreasonably. "James Milner has been promoted to the senior squad and done well. So I think the future is in good hands but I must admit when you don't see too many young English players in the Premier League you do become worried."

In this diverse society we still see an ethnically narrow England team.

There's some sense in it all you know, but not for the reasons he is saying. Here is my theory. Take away Indians because the vast majority of Indians are at the top of the food chain, and are upper class immigrants. You don't expect Henley Regatta to produce top class footballers.

 

My theory is this, the Germans are producing good players who are immigrants, because they're tramps. When England and Scotland produced brilliant players, like Bobby Charlton, Dalglish, John Charles, Gazza, Bobby Moore, they all had one thing in common, they were almost exclusively from working class areas. Living standards have improved over the last 20 years, they have, we have more mod-cons, utter shitholes like Glasgow have been transformed in to beautiful attractive internationally acclaimed destinations. Kids are spoilt, even the ones who claim to live in poverty are better off than 2 or 3 generations ago.

 

The thing is with immigrants, they come to a new country, and it takes them a long while to financially get on to the same level as the indigenous population. Even now I bet the krauts, harbour prejudices against Turks, Poles, and people from Eastern Europe. In much the same way that catholics in Northern Ireland were discriminated against when it came to salaries and employment opportunities, to a degree the same will be true of these immigrants to Germany. What I'm saying is your working class of 1960, are your immigrants of today, they're generally speaking more likely to be poor, and more likely to look to sport as a way of enhancing their lives. That's my theory.

[Park Life 70]

Well thought out.

 

Mostly the Turkish and Polish immigrant community in Germany is the new working class - 'workers'. The Turks especially face racism here that is unheard of in Britain post 1981. Actually the Afghan community is bottom of the food chain and I suspect one or two of those lads to be on the fringes of the German side in a decade.

NB

 

There are 4 or 5 'italians' in the HSV and St Pauli youth set ups earning £800 or so a week who came here to escape unemployment...What odds they will graduate??

 

England needs to re-imagine its diaspora.

 

The German basketball team is busy recruting Americans with German grandparents.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Park Life

[trophyshy 6441]

Video games are a factor. They'd rather play FIFA 12 et al than go out and kick a real ball.

[Park Life 70]

This is a good precis of how the Germans turned it around..

 

http://pitchinvasion...the-bundesliga/

 

The Kirch TV conglomerate that had bankrolled the Bundesliga boom since the early ’90s collapsed in 2002, leaving the clubs in severe financial difficulties. Faced with huge, unsustainable wage bills, they found that the easiest way to cope was to release all the well-paid but fairly mediocre foreigners on their books and replace them with young, much cheaper recruits from their own youth teams.

 

 

 

Seifert emphasised that essential to the system’s smooth operation was the unity between clubs and the German FA, achieved in part through the stipulation that no single entity can own more than 49% of a Bundesliga club.

“This way you don’t have a foreign owner who doesn’t really care for the national teams,” said Seifert. “The clubs have a very strong relationship with the FA: we are all engaged in discussions [about youth development].”

That is in stark contrast to England, where infighting between the FA, the Premier League and the Football League resulted in the Professional Game Youth Development Group being disbanded last year after just a year of operation. Since then, no single body has been in control of youth development in England. Instead, the power has rested with Premier League clubs.

 

 

 

http://www.guardian....lopment-england

 

 

 

"The academies are just one element of the Bundesliga that stands out. Ownership rules preventing any investor from immediately purchasing a majority stake in a club would prohibit the sort of buy-outs at Liverpool, Manchester City, Chelsea, Manchester United and Portsmouth. Affordable wage ratios also ensure that, although the Bundesliga is behind the Premier League in generating revenue, its clubs are the most profitable in the world."

 

http://www.telegraph...ier-League.html

Edited June 25, 2012 by Park Life

[Kid Dynamite 5952]

 

 

Germany is developing youth players from all over eastern europe with an eye to them graduating to the German side. This is a fact and part of the programme set up in 2000 when there was a shortage of German talent. I live here and I know what's going on and what the Germans are upto. You live in NZ you clown.

 

But that doesn't explain why they are so much better than us NOW. We don't even know if that policy will work for them yet. It's what they have been doing the last ten years that has them in their current position

[Park Life 70]

But that doesn't explain why they are so much better than us NOW. We don't even know if that policy will work for them yet. It's what they have been doing the last ten years that has them in their current position

 

Just read the fukin articles.

[Toonpack 6926]

This whole immigration thing is bollocks.

 

It about the infrastructure at junior level. Asians tend to be of slight build, as PL said earlier they can't compete with hoofing it up to No9. Messi wouldn't have got a look in over here.

 

Technically, home-grown players are crap compared to their foreign counterparts. As I said earlier watch any average German/Italian/Spanish game and compare the ability to control a ball immediately of Johnny foreigner to the blood and thunder Brits, Gerrard (one of the supposedly better players) regularly traps the ball 5 foot.

[Kid Dynamite 5952]

This is a good precis of how the Germans turned it around..

 

http://pitchinvasion...the-bundesliga/

 

The Kirch TV conglomerate that had bankrolled the Bundesliga boom since the early ’90s collapsed in 2002, leaving the clubs in severe financial difficulties. Faced with huge, unsustainable wage bills, they found that the easiest way to cope was to release all the well-paid but fairly mediocre foreigners on their books and replace them with young, much cheaper recruits from their own youth teams.

 

 

 

Seifert emphasised that essential to the system’s smooth operation was the unity between clubs and the German FA, achieved in part through the stipulation that no single entity can own more than 49% of a Bundesliga club.

“This way you don’t have a foreign owner who doesn’t really care for the national teams,” said Seifert. “The clubs have a very strong relationship with the FA: we are all engaged in discussions [about youth development].”

That is in stark contrast to England, where infighting between the FA, the Premier League and the Football League resulted in the Professional Game Youth Development Group being disbanded last year after just a year of operation. Since then, no single body has been in control of youth development in England. Instead, the power has rested with Premier League clubs.

 

 

 

http://www.guardian....lopment-england

 

 

 

"The academies are just one element of the Bundesliga that stands out. Ownership rules preventing any investor from immediately purchasing a majority stake in a club would prohibit the sort of buy-outs at Liverpool, Manchester City, Chelsea, Manchester United and Portsmouth. Affordable wage ratios also ensure that, although the Bundesliga is behind the Premier League in generating revenue, its clubs are the most profitable in the world."

 

http://www.telegraph...ier-League.html

 

So now the reason German are some good is cos they sacked all the foreign players and used home grown ones. Make your mind up!

 

Again, that isn't going to work in this country as the main reason we have the money we do in our league Is down to the foreigners. You reckon man city make so much money world wide because of Milner and lescott. Or Kompany, Silva, Aguero and Balotelli?

[Park Life 70]

Really no idea what you're on about. The Germans had a similar crisis in the late 90's and what they did about it is laid out. Read the articles. They changed the structure of the game here top to bottom and it's now bearing fruit.

[jonasjuice 0]

This 'Get rid of the old guard because had their chance and failed' reaction by some people is nonsense btw, as long as they're still better than the other options players like Gerrard and Terry have to be in the team. Some people even saying we Rooney should'nt play for us again ffs.

 

The majority of that team were relatively new to tournament starting line ups anyway.

 

Also no point just having a whole team of youngsters as they'd get destroyed, which would probably be more damaging for their development than anything.

 

Took approximately 30 seconds after we went out for someone to start saying how obvious it was that Adam Johnson, Richards and Joe Cole (!) should have been taken and Roy is a retard. I hate football fans sometimes.

 

Glen Johnson massively impressed me.

 

Oh and people saying it would only be Bale if we did what Parky's suggesting, only Bale would be enough to make it worthwhile. 1 or 2 high class players could make all the difference, swap Young for Bale last night and it could have been a different story.

[Kid Dynamite 5952]

Really no idea what you're on about. The Germans had a similar crisis in the late 90's and what they did about it is laid out. Read the articles. They changed the structure of the game here top to bottom and it's now bearing fruit.

 

You have changed your tune about 3 times this morning man. First off you said they were so good because they pillaged all the best players in Europe. Then when that was shown shown to be bollocks its changed to they gave home grown players a chance. Which is what everyone said on here in the first place needed doing.

[Park Life 70]

Frankfurt/M. - Ten years after compulsory introduction of academies in German professional football, the League Association and German Football League (DFL) have delivered a positive report.

52.4 per cent of all current Bundesliga players are a product of the youth development facilities, which clubs have invested over 520 million euros into over the past few years. The academies, which were made obligatory at the League Association's AGM on 28 February 2001, are currently home to over 5,400 players across 282 teams.

'An undoubted success story'

 

"The development of the academies is an undoubted success story which clubs, the League Association and the DFL can all be very proud of. The youth development work carried out over the past ten years is bearing more and more fruit, as proven by the many young players in the Bundesliga and in the German national team, as well as the success of the DFB's various youth teams. We are up there with the best in the world in terms of youth development," said League President Dr Reinhard Rauball. "We should also thank the DFB for their support in this area. The DFB has done some outstanding work with its concept of base camps all over the country and they have a proven expert in the field of youth development in Sporting Director Matthias Sammer."

"We're now realising how important it was to make the introduction of these academies compulsory in the professional game. There is a large proportion of highly-qualified and competent employees and coaches working in the area of youth development who, in conjunction with schools, are helping to create an optimum environment for the development of young German players. The continued high standard of training is something the League Association and the DFL must ensure continues," said Christian Seifert, CEO of the DFL."We can't and won't rest on our laurels following the success of the academies. We need to stay on the ball and continue building the foundations to meet the challenges of the future. We'll also be increasing our efforts in the areas of integration and demographic change," said Andreas Rettig, Chairman of the League Association Academies Committee.

[Park Life 70]

You have changed your tune about 3 times this morning man. First off you said they were so good because they pillaged all the best players in Europe. Then when that was shown shown to be bollocks its changed to they gave home grown players a chance. Which is what everyone said on here in the first place needed doing.

 

It's a combination of factors. Are you being thick or bored?

[PaddockLad 14655]

Man City dont make money, theyre bankrolled.

 

And its now a combination of things, not just setting up an academy in Prague then?

 

Fair enough. So what we need is Sky to go completly tits up and leave the clubs riddled with debt so they have to pick local lads for the youth squads?...

 

That doesnt really explain why Germany have consistantly appeared in the latter stages of international competitions with monotonous regularity throughout their entire post-war history and England haven't, but thats a whole other argument......or is it?...

[LoveTheBobby 1]

Video games are a factor. They'd rather play FIFA 12 et al than go out and kick a real ball.

 

Probably the prime factor imo.

 

Social spastics wearing headsets, thumb twoddling and eating crisps in their bedrooms.

[McFaul 35]

This whole immigration thing is bollocks.

 

It about the infrastructure at junior level. Asians tend to be of slight build, as PL said earlier they can't compete with hoofing it up to No9. Messi wouldn't have got a look in over here.

 

Technically, home-grown players are crap compared to their foreign counterparts. As I said earlier watch any average German/Italian/Spanish game and compare the ability to control a ball immediately of Johnny foreigner to the blood and thunder Brits, Gerrard (one of the supposedly better players) regularly traps the ball 5 foot.

You've outdone yourself in the cluelessness stakes, particularly with regard to the immigrant crack. Using Gerrard as an example one of the best midfielders Italy have had for years de Rossi, grew up with Gerrard as his favourite player due to his technique and ball control. Stick to the Rangers thread mate, let people who understand football talk here.

[Toonpack 6926]

You've outdone yourself in the cluelessness stakes, particularly with regard to the immigrant crack. Using Gerrard as an example one of the best midfielders Italy have had for years de Rossi, grew up with Gerrard as his favourite player due to his technique and ball control. Stick to the Rangers thread mate, let people who understand football talk here.

 

Watch some games, the average English footballer is technically lightyears behind his foreign counterpart. It really is that simple, and if you read Parky's number of coaches stat (here/Germany) it's not surprising.

[trophyshy 6441]

Probably the prime factor imo.

 

Social spastics wearing headsets, thumb twoddling and eating crisps in their bedrooms.

 

Looks like the Germans even beat us at that.

 

http://www.wcg.com/renew/fun/photogallery/photogallery.asp?keyno=C11121110005

[McFaul 35]

Watch some games, the average English footballer is technically lightyears behind his foreign counterpart. It really is that simple, and if you read Parky's number of coaches stat (here/Germany) it's not surprising.

Watch some games, the average English footballer is technically lightyears behind his foreign counterpart. It really is that simple, and if you read Parky's number of coaches stat (here/Germany) it's not surprising.

The immigration thing I mentioned with Germany is spot on. All of this how you coach kids too, now it has some merits, but it's not the be all and end all. England's best era for players came when the country was skint and there was little or no training or youth development. Look at Bobby Charlton. As anyone who's ever been to Ashington will tell you it's one of the most deprived places in Western Europe. Wor Jackie learned how to play football kicking a stone about, and German players were NOT more technically gifted than us 10 years ago, they weren't 20 years ago, and they weren't 30 years ago. The whole argument has arisen because of our current group of players are shite.