Europe --- In or Out

[Rayvin 4963]

8 minutes ago, Asprilla said:

I voted to leave because I didn’t like the way that treaties were starting to get pushed through.

 

I didn’t like how complicated and far reaching they had become.

 

i liked the free movement of people and hoped that it could remain somehow. However if that was the price to pay it was something I still would sacrifice.

 

i didn’t like how the Union/Euro seemed to be set up to enable Germany to do well at the expense of Greece and other poorer countries.

 

I don’t think any leave voter expected the sheer incompetence of the people who supposedly run the country, nor the weakened bargaining position of having almost half the country and virtually all the media trying to stop it happening.

 

The last few years have been pretty unbearable really. The equivalent of when you hear wanker fans from (say) Portsmouth bleating about how Newcastle fans think they deserve to win stuff.

 

it’s not true, it just gets repeated and non discerning types lap it up.

 

im not saying there aren’t a good many racist knobheads out there who voted for those reasons, just that your average person is smarter than that, on either side.

 

Brave post, respect for that.

 

I think the original vote to leave, based on the range of considerations you've laid out there, is understandable. I don't agree with it, but then I'm a big believer in eventual movements to one world governance and the greater links that can be forged between nations through globalisation. So I'm a full EU federalist, basically. Greece was a corrupt basket case of a nation and brought a lot of what happened to it onto itself, but I also agree that the EU could have handled it better. That said, in a fully federalised EU with a fully realised central bank, I'm not sure that sort of thing happens so easily.

 

The only part of the whole Brexit fiasco that I struggle with, as far as those who voted leave go, is the 2019 vote for Johnson. There's no ignorance at that point, we all damn well knew the guy was an incompetent fucking lunatic. The fact that he was the only person prepared to deliver the sort of Brexit that the people voting for it wanted should have said everything that needed to be known about how bad an idea it was. So on the original vote, I get it, I understand even if I disagree. Anyone voting for them in 2019 had no excuse though, that was just a very poor decision that we are all now paying for.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Rayvin

[Gemmill 34335]

I'm afraid I'm gonna struggle to have much sympathy for someone who lives in France and voted for us to leave the EU.

 

[Rayvin 4963]

9 minutes ago, Asprilla said:

 

 

I don’t think any leave voter expected the sheer incompetence of the people who supposedly run the country, nor the weakened bargaining position of having almost half the country and virtually all the media trying to stop it happening.

 

 

 

Also this - this happened because the Tories went for full on hard Brexit right off the bat. There was no attempt at nuance, no compromise - you could have easily gotten everyone on here to agree to a Norway style option, as offered by Farage prior to the vote, after it had gone through. The whole thing would have been done and dusted. The Tories chose to make it an ideological purity test and we stood up against it because it was psychotic and unfair. We were right to do so.

 

And the EU, no matter if we'd all been unified from the outset, would have had us over a barrel anyway because they were never going to be able to change their rules for us to cherry pick, no matter what we did. It would have undermined the whole union. They said this before we voted, during and after. And the position they took made complete, logical sense. Ours was based on delusion.

[Asprilla 96]

2 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

I'm afraid I'm gonna struggle to have much sympathy for someone who lives in France and voted for us to leave the EU.

 

bit of an obvious point to be fair… I was risking not being allowed to stay 

[Renton 17721]

 

9 minutes ago, Asprilla said:

I voted to leave because I didn’t like the way that treaties were starting to get pushed through.

 

I didn’t like how complicated and far reaching they had become.

 

Can you name some specific examples of this and how they negatively affected us?

 

As for Germany/Greece, surely its up to Greece to decide whether their better off in or out. Us leaving doesn't change that dynamic, nor would Greece leaving the EU I suspect. And guess what? Greece are still happy to be in the EU.

 

You voted for shameless chances like Johnson and Farage, and now you're surprised it's a shit show? Cheers mate for fucking the country up. 

[ewerk 26229]

I thought you were Irish.

[Renton 17721]

I thought he was Colombian.

[Rayvin 4963]

I am a bit gutted to learn that you're living in France. Wish I'd be in a position to make that happen before it became impossible. My partner is French and we had to hurry her over here to be able to ensure we could continue being together at all. We made it, up until Priti decided that actually, everyone with Pre-settled status can be kicked out again a few weeks back (so who knows now) but going back the other way - the longer term plan - now likely involves me having to marry her or christ knows what sort of nonsense.

 

Not big on marriage. Probably don't have a choice now. Still though, at least we're seeing all those benefits. Weekly food shop is costing a lot more and our economic recovery is lagging behind everyone else. I hate this country. Weird though, cos 5 years ago I was actually pretty keen on it.

[ewerk 26229]

Maybe it was all worth it to see Rayvin forced to marry a woman he clearly is too cowardly to dump.  

[Gemmill 34335]

2 minutes ago, Asprilla said:

bit of an obvious point to be fair… I was risking not being allowed to stay 

 

Well would you not want to move back anyway to experience the sunlit uplands that you've gifted to the rest of us?

 

Or on reflection are you realising that living in an EU member state isn't all that bad?

Genuinely, if I lived abroad and had no intention of returning to the UK, I absolutely would not have voted in the referendum, and I certainly wouldn't have voted to force change on a country that I didn't even have to live in. At least leave voters in this country are now having to suffer the consequences of their actions (along with the rest of us). 

[Asprilla 96]

1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

 

Also this - this happened because the Tories went for full on hard Brexit right off the bat. There was no attempt at nuance, no compromise - you could have easily gotten everyone on here to agree to a Norway style option, as offered by Farage prior to the vote, after it had gone through. The whole thing would have been done and dusted. The Tories chose to make it an ideological purity test and we stood up against it because it was psychotic and unfair. We were right to do so.

 

And the EU, no matter if we'd all been unified from the outset, would have had us over a barrel anyway because they were never going to be able to change their rules for us to cherry pick, no matter what we did. It would have undermined the whole union. They said this before we voted, during and after. And the position they took made complete, logical sense. Ours was based on delusion.

It’s not a delusion though. People don’t have to agree on wanting a world government which is obviously the way things are going.

 

the fact that things are difficult now doesn’t disprove the principle.

 

If you want out of a marriage the first few years are often horrendous while old arrangements are replaced by shit new ones.

 

it takes time for any new system to operate smoothly.

 

a divorce can be amicable but as time drags on the temptation is to do whatever it takes just to break free, even if it causes other problems.

 

 

people crow about how dumb it is but it’s not dumb, it’s just the by product of being in a massively entangled system

 

people voted for Johnson because he correctly figured out that leave voters had had enough.

 

he sadly is nowhere near competent enough to be in charge of a country

 

 

 

[Gemmill 34335]

The biggest winner of the last page is CT. 

 

The forum has a new Brexit Bogeyman! 

[Renton 17721]

2 minutes ago, Asprilla said:

It’s not a delusion though. People don’t have to agree on wanting a world government which is obviously the way things are going.

 

the fact that things are difficult now doesn’t disprove the principle.

 

If you want out of a marriage the first few years are often horrendous while old arrangements are replaced by shit new ones.

 

it takes time for any new system to operate smoothly.

 

a divorce can be amicable but as time drags on the temptation is to do whatever it takes just to break free, even if it causes other problems.

 

 

people crow about how dumb it is but it’s not dumb, it’s just the by product of being in a massively entangled system

 

people voted for Johnson because he correctly figured out that leave voters had had enough.

 

he sadly is nowhere near competent enough to be in charge of a country

 

 

 

 

Sorry, that's all meaningless word salad. After Gemmill's reminder you live in France your hypocrisy is astounding. 

[Rayvin 4963]

9 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Maybe it was all worth it to see Rayvin forced to marry a woman he clearly is too cowardly to dump.  

 

Because I won't marry her, you think I want to dump her? I tend to see marriage as the kiss of death for relationships anyway, there's no part of me that wants any involvement with it.

 

6 minutes ago, Asprilla said:

It’s not a delusion though. People don’t have to agree on wanting a world government which is obviously the way things are going.

 

the fact that things are difficult now doesn’t disprove the principle.

 

If you want out of a marriage the first few years are often horrendous while old arrangements are replaced by shit new ones.

 

it takes time for any new system to operate smoothly.

 

a divorce can be amicable but as time drags on the temptation is to do whatever it takes just to break free, even if it causes other problems.

 

 

people crow about how dumb it is but it’s not dumb, it’s just the by product of being in a massively entangled system

 

people voted for Johnson because he correctly figured out that leave voters had had enough.

 

he sadly is nowhere near competent enough to be in charge of a country

 

 

 

 

He's the most competent person available to deliver the Brexit that we ended up with. Everyone else, including many Tories, backed the fuck away from it.

 

All I can see is that the next ten years of life in this country are going to be fucking hell. And when it's all over, we'll vote back in again anyway.

 

I'm going to step back from this one now, it doesn't take much to bring me to full tirade on this due to how unbelievably frustrating it is. Still though, useful to understand your views so thanks for sharing.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Rayvin

[Asprilla 96]

1 minute ago, Gemmill said:

 

Well would you not want to move back anyway to experience the sunlit uplands that you've gifted to the rest of us?

 

Or on reflection are you realising that living in an EU member state isn't all that bad?

 

Genuinely, if I lived abroad and had no intention of returning to the UK, I absolutely would not have voted in the referendum, and I certainly wouldn't have voted to force change on a country that I didn't even have to live in. At least leave voters in this country are now having to suffer the consequences of their actions (along with the rest of us). 

“Sunlit uplands”

 

We’re getting close to cliche bingo territory here…!

 

nobody knew how things would pan out.

 

the people who voted to join the common market didn’t vote for what the EU became

 

similarly leave voters had no idea how ineptly the next few years would be handled

 

People can still immigrate to France, it’s just a bit harder… and as I said earlier, immigration wasn’t a reason for me voting the way I did.

 

i would still vote the same way cause the principle hasn’t changed.

 

i would say I was around 20% stay and 80% leave.

 

is there nothing about the EU that you don’t like?

 

people said we should have stayed and changed things from the inside but there was (imo) no chance do that happening

 

 

[Asprilla 96]

16 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

 

Can you name some specific examples of this and how they negatively affected us?

 

As for Germany/Greece, surely its up to Greece to decide whether their better off in or out. Us leaving doesn't change that dynamic, nor would Greece leaving the EU I suspect. And guess what? Greece are still happy to be in the EU.

 

You voted for shameless chances like Johnson and Farage, and now you're surprised it's a shit show? Cheers mate for fucking the country up. 

I’m not going to dignify this with a response. Jesus wept.

[Asprilla 96]

4 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Sorry, that's all meaningless word salad. After Gemmill's reminder you live in France your hypocrisy is astounding. 

Similar

[Gemmill 34335]

Yeah I can understand how you'd still vote the same way. From France. Having experienced none of the consequences of your vote.

 

I mean are you taking the fucking piss here? 

 

 

 

[Asprilla 96]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Because I won't marry her, you think I want to dump her? I tend to see marriage as the kiss of death for relationships anyway, there's no part of me that wants any involvement with it.

 

 

He's the most competent person available to deliver the Brexit that we ended up with. Everyone else, including many Tories, backed the fuck away from it.

 

All I can see is that the net ten years of life in this country are going to be fucking hell. And when it's all over, we'll vote back in again anyway.

 

I'm going to step back from this one now, it doesn't take much to bring me to full tirade on this due to how unbelievably frustrating it is. Still though, useful to understand your views so thanks for sharing.

Hell is subjective. People have different views and I respect others’ right to hold them.

 

like religion, almost nothing is black and white and we all end up worse off when we stay in echo chambers and misrepresent what others think.

[Asprilla 96]

1 minute ago, Gemmill said:

Yeah I can understand how you'd still vote the same way. From France. Having experienced none of the consequences of your vote.

 

I mean are you taking the fucking piss here? 

 

 

 

I still have to go through UK customs 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

You had quite a lot of time to move here if you’d have wanted

[Rayvin 4963]

Just now, Asprilla said:

Hell is subjective. People have different views and I respect others’ right to hold them.

 

like religion, almost nothing is black and white and we all end up worse off when we stay in echo chambers and misrepresent what others think.

 

For what it's worth mate, I spent several years reading a series of alt right, pro Brexit, anti cultural Marxism views. I've been called a nazi on here unironically before.

 

I'm not in an echo chamber. I feel the way I do because of how I've processed how it affects me, and from what I've seen of the logic of the other side. It might be convenient to think that we're all coming at this from positions of just reading news that agrees with us, but at least for me, I'm not. I fully immersed myself in the other side of this. I still think it's mental though. But yes, everyone has a right to hold their views - including me.

[ewerk 26229]

I don't want to reduce your argument to a single word but I'm going to anyway: sovereignty.

British laws for British people. However, that comes with consequences for people's actual livelihoods. There was zero economic case for leaving the EU and there still isn't.

People might not like politicians in Brussels making a tiny minority of our laws but if the last few years has shown us anything it's that they couldn't be any worse than the shower of cunts in London.

In the words of the great, late John Hume, 'you can't eat a flag'.

[Alex 30336]

Thanks, Asprilla mate. It’s going really well 

[Renton 17721]

7 minutes ago, Asprilla said:

I’m not going to dignify this with a response. Jesus wept.

 

Because you can't even name one specific thing basically. Jesus Wept 

[Renton 17721]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

I've been called a nazi on here unironically before.

 

No you haven't!