Politics

[Dr Gloom 24576]

15 hours ago, Rayvin said:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/may/19/benjamin-netanyahu-israel-take-control-gaza-uk-france-canada-threaten-action

 

We appear to be locked in to protest vociferously while Netanyahu ethnically cleanses Gaza.

 

the pictures of the developing famine in gaza are turning my stomach. i argued with friends - and on here - in the immediate aftermath of the october 7 attacks about israel's right to respond to the attack by hamas. i can no longer do so with any conviction. what we're seeing is exactly as you describe. smotrich let the veil fall when he called to clear gaza of all palestinians. chilling. and words which sickeningly sound like those used during events in mid 20th century europe.

 

my family - and i'm convinced a majority of israelis, for that matter - can see through it but they are seemingly as powerless to stop it as we are here in the west. the far-right nationalists and religious fundamentalists in netanyahu's fragile coalition are calling the shots and it is no longer about returning the hostages and destroying hamas, if indeed it ever was. the horrific events of october 7 have been used as an opportunity to cling to power and to turn gaza - and its people - to rubble. meanwhile bibi's biggest cheerleaders are in the whitehouse while europe is apparently too spineless or powerless to do anything about it. 

[Rayvin 6685]

1 minute ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

the pictures of the developing famine in gaza are turning my stomach. i argued with friends - and on here - in the immediate aftermath of the october 7 attacks about israel's right to respond to the attack by hamas. i can no longer do so with any conviction. what we're seeing is exactly as you describe. smotrich let the veil fall when he called to clear gaza of all palestinians. chilling. and words which sickeningly sound like those used during events in mid 20th century europe.

 

my family - and i'm convinced a majority of israelis, for that matter - can see through it but they are seemingly as powerless to stop it as we are here in the west. the far-right nationalists and religious fundamentalists in netanyahu's fragile coalition are calling the shots and it is no longer about returning the hostages and destroying hamas, if indeed it ever was. the horrific events of october 7 have been used as an opportunity to cling to power and to turn gaza - and its people - to rubble. meanwhile bibi's biggest cheerleaders are in the whitehouse while europe is apparently too spineless or powerless to do anything about it. 

 

I get that this is a difficult one and honestly it always has been for me as well because I no more want to see Hamas massacring people than I do Netanyahu, but just to set out - we're all culpable for this, it's not unique even to Israelis, let alone Jewish people. We all stood by and let this entire situation develop into what it has.

 

I mean as you say, Trump has emboldened this absolutely, so you then also have to share the blame around with people who resisted voting for Harris over this stuff. I might well have been one of those people if I were an American (I'm not 100% on that but I can't rule it out), in which case I would certainly feel personally culpable to some extent. As useless as the Democrats are on this, it is hard to imagine it being this bad with them at the helm. I don't know what any of us can do, against any government, anywhere - I'm tempted to say that the only thing we actually can do is to continue to vote for politicians that believe in an international rule based order to things because it's about the only way any modicum of control is every applied. But to be frank, this is more on the US than the rest of us - this is what the world without US leadership looks like, it seems. Isolationism leads to atrocity.

[Rayvin 6685]

1 hour ago, Craig said:

I see Starmer is changing his mind on the winter fuel allowance and wants more pensioners to be eligible. 

Change of heart or another reaction to the local election results? Either way he's coming across as fucking indecisive and with it, weak as fuck.

 

He's so reactive. It's really interesting tbh but it's actually consistent with his strategy pre-election. Just sit back and react to things - which at the time felt like a decent approach, let your enemy make a mistake etc, but it's a bit weird to see it continue on into government. As you say, needs to be far more decisive about these issues and move on from them. It feels like he's just bouncing around based on polling numbers.

[Craig 7935]

I've repeatedly said I'll hold my tongue on my feelings about what is going on in the middle east, but 18 months on, it's increasingly difficult to do so. 

Hamas may be recognised as a terrorist organisation by many nations, including the UK and they did fire the first shots in this episode on 7th October 2023, but the response since from Israel has been ridiculously disproportionate. 

They're viewing Hamas and Palestine as one of the same - they're not! And there's been far too many 'incidents' where the Israelis are claiming an error of judgement on their part. The most prominent one of that was the incident with the Palestinian Red Crescent where unbeknown to the Israeli forces, it was being recorded and proved beyond doubt they were talking a load of shit. 

It's nothing short of Genocide IMO. And the west has, until now, largely stood by and watch it happen. It's disgusting.

[Gemmill 53684]

Tomorrow's headlines today:

 

HAYTON BREAKS 18 MONTH SILENCE ON GAZA

[Craig 7935]

5 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

He's so reactive. It's really interesting tbh but it's actually consistent with his strategy pre-election. Just sit back and react to things - which at the time felt like a decent approach, let your enemy make a mistake etc, but it's a bit weird to see it continue on into government. As you say, needs to be far more decisive about these issues and move on from them. It feels like he's just bouncing around based on polling numbers.

That's a wholly acceptable rhetoric when you're in opposition, but the minute you walk into Number 10 you need to bin off that practice else your tenure is going to be very short indeed. Perhaps the Southport incident and ensuing civil unrest so early into his government took his eye off the ball and he's playing catchup ever since, but it's no excuse in reality. 

Taking GB News as a sole media channel to an event is hard to forgive for me. It's not about the broadcaster chosen per se, it's the control of the media as a whole I'm uncomfortable with - it wouldn't have mattered who he'd chosen - the mere fact he's being selective convinces me he's trying to drive support. 

[Craig 7935]

2 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

Tomorrow's headlines today:

 

HAYTON BREAKS 18 MONTH SILENCE ON GAZA

Haven't you got your latest Android buzz-toy to re-flash or something?

[spongebob toonpants 4611]

6 hours ago, Rayvin said:

As useless as the Democrats are on this, it is hard to imagine it being this bad with them at the helm.

You don't have to imagine it, the genocide started with Biden in office and he, or whoever was working his reanimated corpse, did nothing but sell them arms and cover Isreal back

 

History will not be kind on the West's response to Isreal

[Craig 7935]

The challenge with America is the Jewish vote is significant enough to decide an election. So both sides of the political divide are absolutely shit-scared and as a result appeasement of Israel and anything it does is common place

[RobinRobin 13160]

[ewerk 34799]

8 hours ago, Craig said:

The challenge with America is the Jewish vote is significant enough to decide an election. 

 

Is it though? I know Jews are more likely to vote than the average joe but the largest populations of Jew are in New York, New Jersey and California, which all went Harris last time.

[Craig 7935]

10 minutes ago, ewerk said:

 

Is it though? I know Jews are more likely to vote than the average joe but the largest populations of Jew are in New York, New Jersey and California, which all went Harris last time.

A fair point, but the common belief is it's enough to decide it hence why there's such appeasement.

[ewerk 34799]

5 minutes ago, Craig said:

A fair point, but the common belief is it's enough to decide it hence why there's such appeasement.

 

Well the theory is that the Jews provide a lot of finance to the presidential campaigns so you have to keep them happy, though I'd guess that's another anti-semitic trope.

[Alex 38224]

I mean it’s difficult to simplify it too much. But I think at least in part you have the huge collective guilt of the Holocaust. This is turn has led to Israel being backed financially and militarily in such a disproportionate manner over time that’s led to them being this regional superpower but also surrounding by potential enemies and being a counterbalance to Iran in particular. Then you have the huge vested interest of the American military war machine. And the huge profits that comes with that. You can’t just row that back easily, which has painted Europe and America into this corner. And Trump being in power and the instability of that seems to have given Israel even more of a free rein. Whilst recognising and agreeing with SpongeBob on Biden’s role in all this too. Probably rambling a bit but I think all that is much more of a factor than securing the Jewish vote in places like New York 

Edited 4 hours ago by Alex

[Dr Gloom 24576]

9 hours ago, Craig said:

The challenge with America is the Jewish vote is significant enough to decide an election. So both sides of the political divide are absolutely shit-scared and as a result appeasement of Israel and anything it does is common place

 

mate, there's like 7m jews in the us out of a population of almost 350m. it really isn't the demographic that decides elections. 

[Craig 7935]

22 minutes ago, Alex said:

I mean it’s difficult to simplify it too much. But I think at least in part you have the huge collective guilt of the Holocaust. This is turn has led to Israel being backed financially and militarily in such a disproportionate manner over time that’s led to them being this regional superpower but also surrounding by potential enemies and being a counterbalance to Iran in particular. Then you have the huge vested interest of the American military war machine. And the huge profits that comes with that. You can just row that back easily, which has painted Europe and America into this corner. And Trump being in power and the instability of that seems to have given Israel even more of a free rein. Whilst recognising and agreeing with SpongeBob on Biden’s role in all this too. Probably rambling a bit but I think all that is much more of a factor than securing the Jewish vote in places like New York 

The fucking irony that Israel are bordering on ethnic cleansing when you consider what happened during WWII is not lost either.

 

I read one political commentator remark the post-holocaust rhetoric was "'this was never to happen again', NOT 'this was never to happen again to us'"

[Dr Gloom 24576]

46 minutes ago, Craig said:

A fair point, but the common belief is it's enough to decide it hence why there's such appeasement.

 

i don't think it is mate, unless you take the old antimseitmic consipracy theories that jews run the world and the us politicial class are the thralls of the jewish banker/media elite seriously 

[ewerk 34799]

1 minute ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

i don't think it is mate, unless you take the old antimseitmic consipracy theories that jews run the world and the us politicial class are the thralls of the jewish banker/media elite seriously 

 

What industry do you work in again, mate?

[Dr Gloom 24576]

1 minute ago, ewerk said:

 

What industry do you work in again, mate?

 

no elite is in my thrall, i can tell you

[Rayvin 6685]

The oft cited political power issue that I've seen is AIPAC and equivalent pro Israeli lobbying groups. The deal with that seems to be that the US government gives aid to Israel, Israel gives some of it back to AIPAC who then in turn pass that on to fund US representatives, who then vote to give more money to Israel, etc. They fund politicians who support Israel, Republican or Democrat, and their money was involved in almost 400 individual races in the last election.

 

It's not a Jewish conspiracy so much as an American one, but that's what I have seen argued as to why the US is so politically obsessed with Israel - though it wouldn't be evidence of "Jews running the world from the shadows" so much as Israel lobbying the US government in the same way every other lobbyist does - just that AIPAC is perhaps a bit more powerful than most. I think the money probably has the biggest say in the 'why' for a lot of this from a US standpoint.

[Renton 24813]

I don't even want to engage with this. Save to say that yesterday or the day before there was someone from the Israeli government on C4 news lecturing us (UK and western Europe) on moral values. Just get fucked man. The nation that survived a holocaust inflicted on them and their diaspora inflicting one of their own on their neighbours. So fucked up. 

Edited 3 hours ago by Renton

[Craig 7935]

 

[Renton 24813]

"History is doomed to repeat itself"

 

Has there ever been a more true saying? I just never thought I'd get to witness it myself in my lifetime.

 

[Dr Gloom 24576]

 

41 minutes ago, Craig said:

 

 

 

tbf to netanyahu, he has condemned this bloke's words. he is a far-right loonie and no longer an MP in the knesset 

Edited 2 hours ago by Dr Gloom

[Dr Gloom 24576]

but it's sickening that some people even think this sort of thing, let alone utter it in a TV interview