Politics

[Renton 17859]

I don't understand why failing to get into Grammar schools because of your academic ability at that time stops you developing later and succeeding anyway, as both your examples suggest happened?

You don't understand how selective streaming at 11 disbeneflts the bottom tier? Really?

[Renton 17859]

They may not have benefited, but would they have suffered? Doesn't sound like not getting into a Grammar school would have made a whole heap of difference to that part of their lives?

Because they wouldn't have got into Uni from a secondary modern. Is this not obvious?

[Dr Gloom 19879]

i would have struggled to get into a grammar school as well. it's just way too early to have your future academic path decided. i was a little shit at 11 too but ended up getting As and Bs at GCSE went on to do A levels and get a degree. 

[Dr Gloom 19879]

they're divisive too - even within families ffs. 

[Christmas Tree 3997]

it's hard because it has to be, e.g they have to have proof of numeracy skills in the job because they will constantly monitoring timings, using fractions, percentages etc for drug calculations

It's only just went to degree level. Virtually every NHS nurse doesn't have / need a degree.

[Dr Gloom 19879]

fuck those fancy dan lecturers! 

[The Fish 9038]

You don't understand how selective streaming at 11 disbeneflts the bottom tier? Really?

 

I understand that previous iterations haven't benefited each student, but surely that doesn't mean that future versions are necessarily doomed to fail. I know I (and others like me) suffered because the teacher had so many kids with individual learning requirements that because I was passing I was largely ignored. I 100% would have benefited from being in a Grammar school where the class would have been made up of kids who were at a similar level at a similar age. Just like the class I was in at Seaton Sluice Middle School would have benefited by being made up of kids of a similar level at a similar age. 

 

Because they wouldn't have got into Uni from a secondary modern. Is this not obvious?

 

Wouldn't an annual test mean that kids could migrate to Grammar schools if they... I'm struggling to find a term to describe slotting into that Grammar stream without it being insulting, condescending or flat out inaccurate so I apologise in advance.

 

Also, that's true of the earlier version of Grammar schools, but it needn't be true in the future.

[The Fish 9038]

they're divisive too - even within families ffs. 

Isn't everything though?

 

I don't think the absence of Grammar schools would have lead to national familial harmony? 

[Dr Gloom 19879]

 

 

Sam Freedman, a former education adviser to Michael Gove, who is in charge of programmes for Teach First, said: “The prime minister has said that she wants to create a country that works for all, but education experts are united that the evidence shows grammar schools harm social mobility.”

 

The Association of Teachers and Lecturers meanwhile, called the plan “a massive distraction from the real issues facing our education system”.

 

May defended a return to more selective schools at a meeting of the 1922 Committee of Tory MPs late on Wednesday, to cheers from backbenchers.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/sep/08/justine-greening-confirms-plan-lift-ban-grammar-schools-11-plus

 

Yet another Tory policy that puts appeasing back benchers ahead of facts. 

[ewerk 26554]

Because they wouldn't have got into Uni from a secondary modern. Is this not obvious?

 

How do you figure that? Loads of people here go on to uni from secondary schools. This idea that failure to get into a grammar school means that your life is over at 11 is absolute rubbish.

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3230]

How do you figure that? Loads of people here go on to uni from secondary schools. This idea that failure to get into a grammar school means that your life is over at 11 is absolute rubbish.

 

Tbf the amount of pressure put on kids by simple SATS tests which have no meaning whatsoever seems to be ruining lives. God help the poor fuckers if the outcome actually meant something.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/teacher-network/2015/may/16/secret-teacher-sats-stress-childrens-love-of-learning

[NJS 3986]

How do you figure that? Loads of people here go on to uni from secondary schools. This idea that failure to get into a grammar school means that your life is over at 11 is absolute rubbish.

It does depend on what the secondary schools are. Before abolition there was very much a write-off notion as I mentioned with an acceptance that those who went to secondary moderns would be either the plumbers and electricians or the office workers at best. I remember when the 11plus results were given at my school and the teacher tried to cheer up the failers by using my sister as an example who'd failed but who'd still qualified as a radiographer which is not a bad job but shouldn't be the pinnacle of ambition. Of course you can argue that not everyone should go to uni as mentioned above and we still need plumbers etc but stamping that on people's forehead at 11 is too soon.

 

I went to a grammar school which changed to a comp the year I started which meant I benefited from good teachers but it also meant I mixed with all kinds of kids background and intelligence wise within streams which I think really worked and meant those who developed at different speeds still did alright.

Isn't everything though?

 

I don't think the absence of Grammar schools would have lead to national familial harmony?

[Dr Gloom 19879]

we test kids way too early in this country. 

[Renton 17859]

How do you figure that? Loads of people here go on to uni from secondary schools. This idea that failure to get into a grammar school means that your life is over at 11 is absolute rubbish.

Then what's the point of Grammar schools at all? I'm not arguing against academic streaming, I'm saying it can be done much more fairly within an individual school and that way it's much easier for individual kids to fulfill their potential without needing to change school entirely.

 

You say NI gets much better results than the rest of the UK but there could be any number of reasons for that. I'd be more interested to see if Kent or Birmingham have better success tbh. But even if Grammar schools are more efficient, that certainly doesn't make them more equitable. Both are important considerations.

[ewerk 26554]

It does depend on what the secondary schools are. Before abolition there was very much a write-off notion as I mentioned with an acceptance that those who went to secondary moderns would be either the plumbers and electricians or the office workers at best. I remember when the 11plus results were given at my school and the teacher tried to cheer up the failers by using my sister as an example who'd failed but who'd still qualified as a radiographer which is not a bad job but shouldn't be the pinnacle of ambition. Of course you can argue that not everyone should go to uni as mentioned above and we still need plumbers etc but stamping that on people's forehead at 11 is too soon.

 

I went to a grammar school which changed to a comp the year I started which meant I benefited from good teachers but it also meant I mixed with all kinds of kids background and intelligence wise within streams which I think really worked and meant those who developed at different speeds still did alright.

 

We currently have around 17,000 pupils studying A-Levels in grammar schools and 13,000 studying A-Levels in non-grammar schools so it certainly isn't the case any more that education isn't for you if you don't get into a grammar school.

[ewerk 26554]

Then what's the point of Grammar schools at all? I'm not arguing against academic streaming, I'm saying it can be done much more fairly within an individual school and that way it's much easier for individual kids to fulfill their potential without needing to change school entirely.

 

You say NI gets much better results than the rest of the UK but there could be any number of reasons for that. I'd be more interested to see if Kent or Birmingham have better success tbh. But even if Grammar schools are more efficient, that certainly doesn't make them more equitable. Both are important considerations.

 

I'm not an education expert but for me it raised the standard of what was expected. In our school we weren't expected to pass our GCSEs, we were expected to get As in them. There was obviously a much higher percentage of pupils capable and actually wanting to achieve academic success. 

 

And the success we've been having of late with pupils from secondary schools shows that it's working for them too. Maybe being the smartest kid in a secondary school class is better than being of middling intelligence in a grammar school.

 

That's not to say that it's always been that way. It's only in the last 10/15 years that secondary schools have actually got their act together.

[NJS 3986]

Are schools more likely to be single sex in NI? I think that has a positive Impact on results.

[Renton 17859]

We currently have around 17,000 pupils studying A-Levels in grammar schools and 13,000 studying A-Levels in non-grammar schools so it certainly isn't the case any more that education isn't for you if you don't get into a grammar school.

So significantly less A levels taken in non-grammar schools and yet iirc you said before there were nearly twice as many non-grammars? That's fucking appalling.

[ewerk 26554]

Are schools more likely to be single sex in NI? I think that has a positive Impact on results.

 

I'm not sure if it is any more. I went to an all boys school but it's mixed now, as are all the schools in my area that were single sex when I was a kid.

[ewerk 26554]

So significantly less A levels taken in non-grammar schools and yet iirc you said before there were nearly twice as many non-grammars? That's fucking appalling.

 

Not really. The number of schools doesn't mean much. Enrollment figures are currently 63,000 at grammar schools vs 80,000 at non-grammars and naturally non-grammars will have more kids simply not capable of getting A-levels.

[Renton 17859]

Not really. The number of schools doesn't mean much. Enrollment figures are currently 63,000 at grammar schools vs 80,000 at non-grammars and naturally non-grammars will have more kids simply not capable of getting A-levels.

Decided on at 11 years old (I'm guessing very few transfer after this). I don't think we're ever going to agree on the fairness of that, so I'll leave it there.

[ewerk 26554]

I'm saying that it seems to be working here. I could well be wrong, it could be terribly unfair. I'm speaking from my own experience,  I'm simply not knowledgeable enough on the subject to say anything definitively.

[Dickie 0]

Good to hear your input on this Ewerk as someone who has been through a grammar school system, and the grammar school system in NI is clearly producing a lot of well educated kids, but I don't think anything could convince me that its right to tell an 11 year old that he has to go to a completely different school to his mates because he didn't do well on some tests. 11 years old is far too young for a start, but to segregate kids into completely different institutions based on perceived academic ability (or any other reason for that matter) doesn't sit well with me. 16/17/18 is plenty early enough to start segregating them into universities/technical colleges/jobs/apprenticeships etc imo. If the NI secondary string schools are as good as you say they are then it would seem preferable to me for all schools to use them as a model, with internal streaming to make sure the more able kids aren't held back.

 

As others have said, there are so many things wrong with our education system but for me the prospect of re-introducing grammar schools to fix it is almost as depressing and misguided as the prospect of leaving the EU to fix the rest of the country's problems.       

[Dr Gloom 19879]

 

As others have said, there are so many things wrong with our education system but for me the prospect of re-introducing grammar schools to fix it is almost as depressing and misguided as the prospect of leaving the EU to fix the rest of the country's problems.       

 

this. again, policy dictated by tory backbenchers

[The Fish 9038]

Good to hear your input on this Ewerk as someone who has been through a grammar school system, and the grammar school system in NI is clearly producing a lot of well educated kids, but I don't think anything could convince me that its right to tell an 11 year old that he has to go to a completely different school to his mates because he didn't do well on some tests. 11 years old is far too young for a start, but to segregate kids into completely different institutions based on perceived academic ability (or any other reason for that matter) doesn't sit well with me. 16/17/18 is plenty early enough to start segregating them into universities/technical colleges/jobs/apprenticeships etc imo. If the NI secondary string schools are as good as you say they are then it would seem preferable to me for all schools to use them as a model, with internal streaming to make sure the more able kids aren't held back.

 

As others have said, there are so many things wrong with our education system but for me the prospect of re-introducing grammar schools to fix it is almost as depressing and misguided as the prospect of leaving the EU to fix the rest of the country's problems.       

 

Just on a personal level, that was way too late for me. All through my schooling I had been capable enough to get good passing grades so the teachers ignored me. By the time I sat my GCSEs, (let alone my A-Levels) my work ethic was shot, I had cruised through my schooling and when actual graft became necessary I was completely unprepared. 

 

Had I gone to a Grammar school I don't think I would have been allowed to cruise, even if I had been getting the grades. I needed a huge wake-up call 2yrs after leaving high school to get me back on a track I should never have been off.