Politics

[Dr Gloom 19826]

1 hour ago, Alex said:

Hamas killed almost as many civilians in 24 hours as were killed in several decades in the Troubles. Israel have killed several times more (in the preceding 20 years) and in the weeks since. I am not for a second seeking to condone / justify Israel’s response. But a huge response to what Hamas did was inevitable. It’s the worse slaughter of Jews since the Holocaust. As I’ve mentioned previously I don’t see anything wrong in the response from Starmer in relation to the call for a ceasefire. There’s nothing to be gained at all and plenty for his opponents to use against him. I have loads of issues with the bloke and his (lack of) leadership over things he can influence. But I find a lot of the criticism of him over this on here quite bizarre tbh. 

Even more bizarre are the well meaning lefties who think Hamas are remotely interested in a ceasefire  

[NJS 3981]

18 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

Hamas is committed to genocide 

 

 

 

On one side you have a few thousand jihadists with access to pretty small beer weapons who are horrible bastards perfectly willing to murder Jews in the worst possible way and deserve to be wiped out. Unfortunately actions like this are great recruitment tools so wiping them out is tough. 

 

On the other you have a state where every adult is notionally in the army, who are backed with state of the arm weapons worth billions, have probably the best intelligence agency in the world and have full licence from the US and the rest of the western world to do what the fuck they want. 

 

The numbers killed reflect the difference. 

 

Edited November 16, 2023 by NJS

[Monkeys Fist 38779]

1 hour ago, PaddockLad said:

 

 

This walking heart attack explains how we’ve ended up with the shitshow we’ve got, tbh. 
 

 

[Dr Gloom 19826]

6 minutes ago, NJS said:

On one side you have a few thousand jihadists with access to pretty small beer weapons who are horrible bastards perfectly willing to murder Jews in the worst possible way and deserve to be wiped out. Unfortunately actions like this are great recruitment tools so wiping them out is tough. 

 

On the other you have a state where every adult is notionally in the army, who are backed with state of the arm weapons worth billions, have probably the best intelligence agency in the world and have full licence from the US and the rest of the western world to do what the fuck they want. 

 

The numbers killed reflect the difference. 

 

I don’t disagree. And the number of Palestinian civilian lives lost will continue to grow the longer it takes for this to end.
 

I just found the genocide comment a bit puzzling when there is only side in this conflict which is publicly committed to wiping out an entire people.

 

(spoiler: it isn’t Israel)

 

There is nothing wrong with calling for a ceasefire. I wish there could be peace tomorrow.

 

But what do you do if you’re Israel? And a terrorist grouping committed to wiping you off the map launches a barbaric attack on your sovereign territory, beheading people, slaughtering people while they sleep and dance, taking hundreds of people, including women, children and elderly as hostage?

 

Israel launches a counteroffensive to remove Hamas. Loads mode innocent Palestinian civilians die. I’m not sure what else they can do - sit around the table for peace talks with Hamas?  

 

Hamas and Bibi get what they want. Innocent people on both sides pay the price.  

[Alex 30429]

2 minutes ago, Monkeys Fist said:

 

This walking heart attack explains how we’ve ended up with the shitshow we’ve got, tbh. 
 

 

I reckon he was almost at the vinegar strokes thinking about how those so-called but not actually illegal immigrants were about to be shipped off to where they didn’t even come from. Now those nasty lefty woke judges have actually correctly interpreted the law he’s very very upset at having yet another pleasure eroded. Nailed on he’s retired, mortgage-free and the only time he encounters these subjects of his ire is via the Daily Mail. 

[Monkeys Fist 38779]

1 minute ago, Alex said:

the only time he encounters these subjects of his ire is via the Daily Mail. 

Which he reads out loud to his poor, timid, longing-for-deafness, wife. 

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3205]

2 hours ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

Hamas is committed to genocide 

 

 

 

Hamas is but not all Palestinians.

[Dr Gloom 19826]

1 hour ago, Kevin Carr's Gloves said:

Hamas is but not all Palestinians.

of course not. Nor does Netanyahu or the illegal settlers represent all Israelis.  

 

Israel is at war with Hamas, not with normal Palestinian people.

[Renton 17797]

Bridget's on QT tonight. 

 

[Rayvin 4964]

7 hours ago, Renton said:

 

You genuinely think Biden wants innocent Palestinians killed to get an "acceptable body count"? I really hope you are wrong. 

 

That is the only logical view if he at some point decides to back a ceasefire. That the only thing stopping him from doing it now is that not enough innocents have been killed to satisfy Israel.

 

He gets some respect from me if he sticks to his guns and pushes Israel to decimate all of Gaza in an attempt to destroy Hamas because at least that will mean it is genuinely the only option he thinks there is. If at some point he flips around and says we need a ceasefire cos 20k, 30k, 50k are dead, then no, he's getting nothing from me for that. All that tells me is that he knew ceasefire is what this would come to, and he was waiting for the death toll to hit a predefined number/global outrage to become unsustainable. Instead of, y'know, doing the thing he knew he should have done from the word go.

 

So right now I'm really hoping Israel are successfully going to permanently eradicate Hamas for the rest of time, because that's the hill Biden has chosen to die on.

[Dr Gloom 19826]

13 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

That is the only logical view if he at some point decides to back a ceasefire. That the only thing stopping him from doing it now is that not enough innocents have been killed to satisfy Israel.

 

what the fuck are you talking about? 

[Dr Gloom 19826]

Honestly man. You think there’s some fucking war room in Israel where they are totting up a league table of civilian deaths? What’s wrong with you?  

[Rayvin 4964]

5 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

Honestly man. You think there’s some fucking war room in Israel where they are totting up a league table of civilian deaths? What’s wrong with you?  

 

Not in Israel, no.

[Dr Gloom 19826]

Just now, Rayvin said:

 

Not in Israel, no.

you’ve lost me.
 

You said starmer hasn’t backed a ceasefire yet because Israel isn’t yet satisfied with the number of Palestinian civilians deaths, like slaughtering innocents is their objective. 

 
i don’t know what your point is tbh

[Rayvin 4964]

Just now, Dr Gloom said:

you’ve lost me.
 

You said starmer hasn’t backed a ceasefire yet because Israel isn’t yet satisfied with the number of Palestinian civilians deaths, like slaughtering innocents is their objective. 

 
i don’t know what your point is tbh

 

Can you just try reading the fucking post. I'm not talking about Starmer anyway, I've wrote him off altogether previously.

[Dr Gloom 19826]

My bad, you were talking about Biden, not Starmer.

 

I still don’t get it 

[Dr Gloom 19826]

You are suggesting that Israel is deliberately trying to slaughter as many innocent Palestinians as possible though, right? I didn’t read that bit wrong? 

[Rayvin 4964]

Just now, Dr Gloom said:

You are suggesting that Israel is deliberately trying to slaughter as many innocent Palestinians as possible though, right? I didn’t read that bit wrong? 

 

No mate, for fucks sake. 

 

I'm not actually talking about Israel whatsoever here other than as the context upon which to talk about the US.

 

I am saying that there are two options out of this. One is a ceasefire. The other is the total annihilation of Hamas. Further to that, I am saying that at this point, with 10k dead, Biden better fucking believe that the only way out of this is the annihilation of Hamas, because if he turns around later at 20 or 30k dead and calls for a ceasefire, all I'm going to think is that for BIDEN PERSONALLY the key consideration in whether or not a ceasefire was the right course of action was how many innocent lives had been lost.

 

None of this has anything to do with Israel's view, which I strongly suspect is that the total annihilation of Hamas is achievable. Israel are not going to suddenly come up with a ceasefire as a policy suggestion on this though, so they will remain consistent to their view.

[Dr Gloom 19826]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

No mate, for fucks sake. 

 

I'm not actually talking about Israel whatsoever here other than as the context upon which to talk about the US.

 

I am saying that there are two options out of this. One is a ceasefire. The other is the total annihilation of Hamas. Further to that, I am saying that at this point, with 10k dead, Biden better fucking believe that the only way out of this is the annihilation of Hamas, because if he turns around later at 20 or 30k dead and calls for a ceasefire, all I'm going to think is that for BIDEN PERSONALLY the key consideration in whether or not a ceasefire was the right course of action was how many innocent lives had been lost.

 

None of this has anything to do with Israel's view, which I strongly suspect is that the total annihilation of Hamas is achievable. Israel are not going to suddenly come up with a ceasefire as a policy suggestion on this though, so they will remain consistent to their view.

how is a ceasefire a way out? Hamas has already said it will continue to launch terrorist attacks on Israel in this eventuality 

Edited November 16, 2023 by Dr Gloom

[Rayvin 4964]

Just now, Dr Gloom said:

how is a ceasefire a way out? Hamas has already said it will continue to launch terrorist attacks on Israel in this eventuality 

 

How is that relevant to my point?

[Dr Gloom 19826]

The only way this ends, in my opinion, is if Israel removes Hamas and installs Fatah to govern Gaza.

 

Then the Israeli people have to eject Netanyahu at the earliest opportunity, put him behind bars and elect a government grown up enough to talk to Fatah and put steps in place to remove the blockade.
 

There would have to be a period of stability first. This seems a million miles away from where we are now 

[Dr Gloom 19826]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

How is that relevant to my point?

 

because you said one of the two options out of this mess was a ceasefire. 

[Dr Gloom 19826]

full disclosure: I had a couple of drams watching QT and didn’t read the last couple of pages as closely as I could have 

Edited November 16, 2023 by Dr Gloom

[Rayvin 4964]

1 minute ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

because you said one of the two options out of this mess was a ceasefire. 

 

But that's not what my point actually is. My point isn't whether or not a ceasefire is possible, it's whether Biden at some point decides that he has to call for one because we have hit some predetermined number of deaths that are unacceptable. 

 

I noticed Biden called for a 'Pause' last week, unofficially. Testing the waters, I felt. I was enraged by this because it means that somewhere in the US, someone is calculating what an acceptable number of deaths is before the US calls time on their support for what is happening. I'm really, really not calling Israel into this point at all - for me this is entirely about weak political leadership in the West. So if Starmer and Biden do not believe a ceasefire is the way forward, fine, but then they better still be saying that at 100k dead. Or 500k. Or a million. They better still be saying that as the last child in Gaza is killed. Because if they're not, then it means that they were just waiting for an acceptable number before saying anything. I find the very idea of that repellent and sickening.

 

None of which has anything to do with Israel's position which is, genuinely, far more sincere.

[Dr Gloom 19826]

Biden can’t, and won’t, call for a ceasefire.

What he can do is call for restraint. But I don’t see him doing this unless Israel pulls some mad Syrian/Russian style war crimes and levels the place entirely or drops chemical weapons or some shit.