Dazzler 5606 Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 21 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said: i admire your commitment to your own values. i too jumped ship and voted green for a couple of elections after we invaded iraq. not that it made any difference to anything, i live in such a safe labour seat. Must be a canny big seat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17866 Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 47 minutes ago, Rayvin said: As I've said before, if everyone voted Labour despite misgivings and unhappiness with certain policies, then Labour would never be motivated to change the way they operate. They would simply stay where they are. Withholding my vote is the only way I can demonstrate to Starmer that his lies were unacceptable, and that he cannot take me for granted. So it's not even about thinking that we can just pop back into the EU at this point, it's that Labour are refusing to tell the truth on how damaging this has been, and that we need to walk it back. Until they do that, I won't vote for them - with the exception of if they push for voting reform. I can justify that vote to myself on the basis that it saves us from this binary nonsense which only serves to entrench stupid policies like Brexit. I'm not expecting I am noticed, or that I achieve anything with this. I simply can't not do it. It would be an erosion of my sense of self, and the values that are important to me. All for what? A vote that is meaningless for a party that won't notice either way, and will win without me. I'm better off preserving my sense of self since at least that is an impact I can feel. If you need this to make more sense in a pragmatic way than it does, my partner is European and we are struggling to find a way for her to be here, meaning that much of my life involves being separated from someone I care about. Now, I would have taken this stance anyway I like to think, but that specific reality does rather underline it. Labour have nothing to offer me that will make that any better. They just continue to spit in my face to placate fucking morons. I have no respect for that, and I won't vote for what I don't respect. Very sorry to hear about the personal situation there Rayvin, hope it works out for you. I honestly believe movement between countries will be one of the first things to improve after the election. Not full FoM maybe, but something to make your situation more bearable hopefully. It will be more than you'd get under the tories, for sure. I found the timing of Van der Lyen's "offer" odd, but it will still be on the table I reckon after a GE when it will be taken up. Although even a young one like you must be in his 30s now? Anyway, you're doing the right thing I guess, sticlking to your principles. Because as you say, on an individual level it will make no difference and you don't need to compromise yourself. Me, well, I've realised I need to compromise my ideals all the time now. Like I know my job is now to the benefit of Pharma but unfortunately to the detriment of the NHS. I mean, I can try to justify myself by saying I'm championing individual patient groups but in the end, I know this is just a smoke screen and my advocacy for Pharma companies is about transferring UK tax money to share holders. And even at an individual level, this makes real a difference. If I'm honest, there are similar issues with NUFC and PIF. Which is why for my own sanity I shrug my shoulders and do the best I can within the confines of the World I live in. I suspect most of us on here are on a similar boat. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 4 minutes ago, Renton said: Very sorry to hear about the personal situation there Rayvin, hope it works out for you. I honestly believe movement between countries will be one of the first things to improve after the election. Not full FoM maybe, but something to make your situation more bearable hopefully. It will be more than you'd get under the tories, for sure. I found the timing of Van der Lyen's "offer" odd, but it will still be on the table I reckon after a GE when it will be taken up. Although even a young one like you must be in his 30s now? I am, she's not. That offer would have been a godsend tbh, but frankly it appeared out of nowhere and was shot down almost as quick, so I didn't exactly have time to get my hopes up. I'm not really trying to justify my position solely on that anyway as I did feel very strongly about this anyway. It's just extra context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 Interesting article from the Guardian here on perceptions of Labour beyond just the polling. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/apr/22/labour-tories-election-polls-analysis Starmer's Labour are polling lower than Milliband and Corbyn on: - Keeping Promises - Understanding the problems the country faces And are variable (the same? only slightly better?) than both on - Good team of leaders - Fit to govern The Tories have nosedived on every metric. So as I guess we all know, this just confirms that Labour is winning by default, not because they are seen as having anything to offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19879 Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 24 minutes ago, Dazzler said: Must be a canny big seat. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 34861 Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 Great perspective shot. "What time was this press conference meant to start?" "I'm here! Guys! I'm here!" 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazzler 5606 Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 4 minutes ago, Gemmill said: Great perspective shot. "What time was this press conference meant to start?" "I'm here! Guys! I'm here!" Fucking hell, is he even 5 foot? I’m short, but feel like I’d tower over him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 34861 Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 Savanta just announced they made a mistake with their polling last week and actually Andy Street is 3 points behind Labour for the West Midlands mayoral race. There's no such thing as a good day for Rishi Sunak. Karma has cancelled the bloke. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19879 Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 8 minutes ago, Rayvin said: Interesting article from the Guardian here on perceptions of Labour beyond just the polling. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/apr/22/labour-tories-election-polls-analysis Starmer's Labour are polling lower than Milliband and Corbyn on: - Keeping Promises - Understanding the problems the country faces And are variable (the same? only slightly better?) than both on - Good team of leaders - Fit to govern The Tories have nosedived on every metric. So as I guess we all know, this just confirms that Labour is winning by default, not because they are seen as having anything to offer. that's the only strategy as far as i can tell - hoover up the floating voters in the middle by default by not promising - or standing for - anything. it's not exactly an inspiring vision for the future, i agree, but it worked for biden. there are two ways to look at it: it's either a massive missed opportunity to bring about transformative change from a position of strength, or the win at all costs strategy will pave the way for stealth policies that will reverse some of the damage the tories have done to the country. i guess time will tell. however, i do think it's true that most elections are won from the centre, but once in power the governing party can introduce legislation that matters, that wasn't in the manifesto 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19879 Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 18 minutes ago, Gemmill said: Great perspective shot. "What time was this press conference meant to start?" "I'm here! Guys! I'm here!" must be photoshopped - he looks like a gnome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 34861 Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 1 minute ago, Dr Gloom said: must be photoshopped - he looks like a gnome! Getty images. It's the real deal. I'm actually hearing that he's stood on the podium here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17866 Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 2 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said: that's the only strategy as far as i can tell - hoover up the floating voters in the middle by default by not promising - or standing for - anything. it's not exactly an inspiring vision for the future, i agree, but it worked for biden. there are two ways to look at it: it's either a massive missed opportunity to bring about transformative change from a position of strength, or the win at all costs strategy will pave the way for stealth policies that will reverse some of the damage the tories have done to the country. i guess time will tell. however, i do think it's true that most elections are won from the centre, but once in power the governing party can introduce legislation that matters, that wasn't in the manifesto We're playin AC MIlan, they score to draw it level, are we happy going into Europa league or do we twist and risk getting knocked out altogether? We know what happened. Alright, alright, now I've typed it this is a shit analogy which make almost no sense BUT THE POINT STILL STANDS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19879 Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 Just now, Gemmill said: Getty images. It's the real deal. I'm actually hearing that he's stood on the podium here. he looks even more ridiculous because you can't see his torso, shoulders, arms, legs - anything! all dwarfed by the lectern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 2 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said: that's the only strategy as far as i can tell - hoover up the floating voters in the middle by default by not promising - or standing for - anything. it's not exactly an inspiring vision for the future, i agree, but it worked for biden. there are two ways to look at it: it's either a massive missed opportunity to bring about transformative change from a position of strength, or the win at all costs strategy will pave the way for stealth policies that will reverse some of the damage the tories have done to the country. i guess time will tell. however, i do think it's true that most elections are won from the centre, but once in power the governing party can introduce legislation that matters, that wasn't in the manifesto Agree here, and I'm open to the reality that it could be the latter. Mind you, we should look cautiously at the US situation too - it worked for Biden on that occasion but he seems to be right back against Trump again now, with the latter ahead in the polls. My personal belief is that you do need to come up with a way to 'win' at some point, and that involves actually having a vision for where the country needs to go. Britain is still stuck in a slow motion car crash, and while Labour will at least hit the brakes, it's not about to start trying to turn the car around. We're going to continue off the cliff until someone with some ideas comes along. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17866 Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 4 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said: must be photoshopped - he looks like a gnome! It's shot at ankle height though. I mean I'm no camerman - although I thought you were - but you could make Big Dan Burn look tiny from that angle surely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19879 Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 (edited) 6 hours ago, Rayvin said: Agree here, and I'm open to the reality that it could be the latter. Mind you, we should look cautiously at the US situation too - it worked for Biden on that occasion but he seems to be right back against Trump again now, with the latter ahead in the polls. My personal belief is that you do need to come up with a way to 'win' at some point, and that involves actually having a vision for where the country needs to go. Britain is still stuck in a slow motion car crash, and while Labour will at least hit the brakes, it's not about to start trying to turn the car around. We're going to continue off the cliff until someone with some ideas comes along. i agree. i hope that once in power they do finally stand for something. controlling the narrative early on is also key. the tories dined out on labour's handling of the economy after the global financial crisis of 08 for years, as if it were labour's fault that the world went into financial meltdown - and they were even bold enough to push through massively disruptive change, from austerity to brexit. the spin doctors have got to seize the opportunity as much as the policymakers. we have to make the tories pay for what they have done to the country so they own and the effects of brexit and the disastrous truss government. that will require courageous leadership - something we haven't seen much of from starmer to date Edited April 22 by Dr Gloom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19879 Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 6 minutes ago, Renton said: I mean I'm no camerman - although I thought you were Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 34861 Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Dynamite 5965 Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 11 hours ago, Dr Gloom said: I’m sure lots of people are marching in support of innocent civilians and those marching in solidarity with terrorists aren’t the majority. However, the article is entirely accurate on many levels. You don’t have to spend long looking at the footage from the marches to find images of people waving Hamas and hezbollah flags, or carrying flags with swastikas on them ffs. Or to see clips of people chanting “intafada” or “from the river to sea” - which call for violent revolution and the destruction of the state of of Israel respectively. None of this is apparently unacceptable but it is a crime to be “openly Jewish” - can’t you see how appalling that is? https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/apr/22/initial-story-about-openly-jewish-incident-not-full-picture-says-ex-senior-met-officer Turns out he was just being a dick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19879 Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 1 hour ago, Kid Dynamite said: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/apr/22/initial-story-about-openly-jewish-incident-not-full-picture-says-ex-senior-met-officer Turns out he was just being a dick was he? I think he was he trying to make a point. He clearly has an agenda given his work for the campaign against antisemitism so he’s turned up with his bodyguards to see if he could move freely around the march, to challenge the met’s claim that Jewish people are welcome. He could not. The policeman made that clear. Visibly Jewish people aren’t safe at the march. He published the edited version of the exchange to put the policeman’s comment in the spotlight. That’s my take having watched the full video and read the transcript. It sounds like you’ve made up your mind. You can read the bits that were audible from the sky video here https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/apr/22/met-officer-antisemitism-campaigner-gideon-falter-longer-video-sky-news I appreciate the police have a difficult job, and he could have walked the longer route with the police escort. I can also understand why he was challenging the police’s position on this, given their claims. The response from the crowd? chants of “Zionist scum, shame on you” and allegedly “baby killer” 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Dynamite 5965 Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 Alternatively, he tried to get a bloke who was doing his best to keep the peace, vilified online and potentially disciplined/sacked by posting a highly edited video Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 9039 Posted April 23 Share Posted April 23 16 hours ago, Rayvin said: Agree here, and I'm open to the reality that it could be the latter. Mind you, we should look cautiously at the US situation too - it worked for Biden on that occasion but he seems to be right back against Trump again now, with the latter ahead in the polls. My personal belief is that you do need to come up with a way to 'win' at some point, and that involves actually having a vision for where the country needs to go. Britain is still stuck in a slow motion car crash, and while Labour will at least hit the brakes, it's not about to start trying to turn the car around. We're going to continue off the cliff until someone with some ideas comes along. I think you have to look at what people are voting for in the States. It's personality Vs policy. Trump isn't getting votes by preaching fiscal responsibility, or shrinking government, he's getting it with bombastic speeches appealing to the worst instincts of disenfranchised (and dare I say ill-informed) voters. The Tories don't have that kind of galvanising leader, they've rattled through PMs and cabinet ministers faster than my little'uns going through nappies. And making a bigger mess than when she shits all the way up her back. If Johnson had managed to retain the support of the party and the people then maybe, MAYBE, I'd agree. But right now they're a rudderless junk, in the midst of mutiny, on a becalmed sea. Labour have to remain seen as a well run alternative, seeming exceptional purely through a modicum of competence. They need a blow out to firmly establish themselves as serious leadership. The minute they start announcing grand plans they open themselves up to attacks from opportunistic populists from the right. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Dynamite 5965 Posted April 23 Share Posted April 23 I see the most expensive dog whistle in history has become law overnight. I'm sure fear is spreading through migrant camps in France as we speak... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wykikitoon 16798 Posted April 23 Share Posted April 23 If (When) Starmer gets in. Can he scrap this bill? Has he said he would? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17866 Posted April 23 Share Posted April 23 23 minutes ago, wykikitoon said: If (When) Starmer gets in. Can he scrap this bill? Has he said he would? Of course he can, and will. The policy is inhumane, ruinously expensive, will have zero efficacy, and is just totally batshit. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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