Politics

[Alex 30239]

1 hour ago, Phil said:

 

What colour is the sky on your planet?  You really need to stop over thinking it.  The public overwhelmingly rejected Corbyn and the remain turncoats are almost all on the political scrapheap, timing was irrelevant.  Shoe horning Corbyn into power would only ever have been temporary, and may have lead to the Brexit party holding some form of power.

 

Hopefully the lesson will be learnt and Labour will return to centre ground by appoint someone who is actually electable - like Stephen Kinock.  Unfortunately I fear the rot will be there for years to come and another daft appointment is on the horizon - like Keir Starmer.

 

 

Safe to say you’ve never thought too much about anything

[Gemmill 34166]

Nicky Morgan made a life peer and stays on as Culture Secretary. 

[Renton 17604]

1 hour ago, Meenzer said:

I thought this thread was clearly articulated & worth a read 

 

 

 

It made little sense to me. Blaming New Labour for austerity,  pointing out things like Surestart being scrapped as detrimental? This is literally all the tories fault, not Blair'sor Brown's. Not only that, but she's just as condescending as the media she criticises. Brexit is stupid and will fuck up people's lives, yes. People are stupid for believing in it, turkeys voting for Christmas. Thanks for pointing that out, but what has she said that we dont know already? 

 

 A lot of people, me included, just thought the Corbyn manifesto was unrealistic and a more modest one would have been more believable. She hasn't disproven that thesis. 

Edited December 16, 2019 by Renton

[NJS 3960]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

 

It made little sense to me. Blaming New Labour for austerity,  pointing out things like Surestart being scrapped as detrimental? This is literally all the tories fault, not Blair'sor Brown's. Not only that, but she's just as condescending as the media she criticises. Brexit is stupid and will fuck up people's lives, yes. People are stupid for believing in it, turkeys voting for Christmas. Thanks for pointing that out, but what has she said that we dont know already? 

That NL did fuck all for those people either - at least as far as those people are concerned. 

[Renton 17604]

13 minutes ago, NJS said:

That NL did fuck all for those people either - at least as far as those people are concerned. 

 

We keep returning to this which seems to be a bone of contention. I simply disagree. You've been given lists which showed NL massively invested in healthcare, education, and welfare, but you keep on ignoring them. 

[ewerk 26167]

Ah Phil is back again, like a paedo on parole.

 

 

[/Succession]

[NJS 3960]

3 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

We keep returning to this which seems to be a bone of contention. I simply disagree. You've been given lists which showed NL massively invested in healthcare, education, and welfare, but you keep on ignoring them. 

I don't ignore them but if you were a retired miner who hadn't had a decent job since the pits closed, you may think all those things are minor in comparison to your own lot in life. 

 

Even if you'd seen your kids go to university you'd probably have then seen them leave their home towns.

 

 

[ewerk 26167]

29 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

Nicky Morgan made a life peer and stays on as Culture Secretary. 

Who says that dropping every one of your morals and shilling for someone you completely abhor doesn't pay off.

[ewerk 26167]

1 minute ago, NJS said:

I don't ignore them but if you were a retired miner who hadn't had a decent job since the pits closed, you may think all those things are minor in comparison to your own lot in life. 

 

Even if you'd seen your kids go to university you'd probably have then seen them leave their home towns.

 

 

Corbyn's Labour seemed to push them away much more than New Labour.

[Renton 17604]

10 minutes ago, NJS said:

I don't ignore them but if you were a retired miner who hadn't had a decent job since the pits closed, you may think all those things are minor in comparison to your own lot in life. 

 

Even if you'd seen your kids go to university you'd probably have then seen them leave their home towns.

 

 

 

You'd probably appreciate a decent state pension and huge investment in the NHS though. What did you expect from them after Thatcher, reopening the pits?

 

I also keep saying, you might want to live in a socialist country, but most people simply don't. They were given the option on Thursday and massively  rejected it, preferring the most right wing Tory government in living memory instead. Yes, the media played a huge part, but they weren't the fundamental problem. 

 

It looks like Corbyn and Labour won't learn from their mistakes either. We'll be in the same position in 5 or 10 years. Actually no we will be in a much worse position.

[Phil 6]

2 hours ago, Gemmill said:

Stephen Kinnock. Phil, you might be more electable than that cunt. 

 

Well this is awkward.  I thought he seemed alright... 

 

 

[ewerk 26167]

You would...

[Rayvin 4949]

17 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

You'd probably appreciate a decent state pension and huge investment in the NHS though. What did you expect from them after Thatcher, reopening the pits?

 

I also keep saying, you might want to live in a socialist country, but most people simply don't. They were given the option on Thursday and massively  rejected it, preferring the most right wing Tory government in living memory instead. Yes, the media played a huge part, but they weren't the fundamental problem. 

 

It looks like Corbyn and Labour won't learn from their mistakes either. We'll be in the same position in 5 or 10 years. Actually no we will be in a much worse position.

 

I don't think it's over yet - we'll have to see but the membership are the ones who decide. I won't vote RLB I don't think, and Rayner is falling in behind her.

 

Not sure who I'll go for just yet but whatever Momentum and the party want isn't as important as the membership.

[Phil 6]

7 minutes ago, ewerk said:

You would...

 

My first choice would be Andy Burnham, but Corbynista ran him out of town.

[ewerk 26167]

It’s a bit of a leap from Andy Burnham to Kinnock. Dare I ask what the thought process was there?

[NJS 3960]

26 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

You'd probably appreciate a decent state pension and huge investment in the NHS though. What did you expect from them after Thatcher, reopening the pits?

 

I also keep saying, you might want to live in a socialist country, but most people simply don't. They were given the option on Thursday and massively  rejected it, preferring the most right wing Tory government in living memory instead. Yes, the media played a huge part, but they weren't the fundamental problem. 

 

It looks like Corbyn and Labour won't learn from their mistakes either. We'll be in the same position in 5 or 10 years. Actually no we will be in a much worse position.

Not reopening the pits but some investment would have been nice. Some social housing.

 

Thing is people have been told for 40 years that we cant afford anything, things we did own have been sold to the rich and I think the generation im a part of and older just don't believe it's possible no matter how well it's costed or how desirable. They's rather believe in fucking Brexit.

 

I don't even think the Labour manifesto was even that socialist - all it aimed to do was to restore a resemblance of balance. That may seem like going backwards but I'd say it was a reset to when the idea of a government working for everybody was abandoned.

 

I'ts very simplistic to say that this defeat means the end of any notion of socialism - by that argument the defeats of 2015 and 2010 show that nobody wants a centrist agenda either.

[Dr Gloom 19735]

7 hours ago, NJS said:

I'm sure Edwards thinks that, but there's still no believable explanation of the cenotaph/laughter episodes in my view. 

 

That's before considering the punch thing - admittedly that wasn't BBC alone but it came from the same area - "correspondents" happily acting as conduits for Cummings' lies. 

The cenotaph thing is quite believable. 

I accept the re-edited package with Johnson without the laughter is more suspicious. 

the slip of the tongue from the reporter sounded awful bit could have easily just been an innocent slip of the tongue.

the worst thing for me has been Laura K. Barely trying to disguise her blatant bias in the last week of the campaign and breaking basic editorial rules. I think she should be replaced

 

[Renton 17604]

55 minutes ago, NJS said:

Not reopening the pits but some investment would have been nice. Some social housing.

 

Thing is people have been told for 40 years that we cant afford anything, things we did own have been sold to the rich and I think the generation im a part of and older just don't believe it's possible no matter how well it's costed or how desirable. They's rather believe in fucking Brexit.

 

I don't even think the Labour manifesto was even that socialist - all it aimed to do was to restore a resemblance of balance. That may seem like going backwards but I'd say it was a reset to when the idea of a government working for everybody was abandoned.

 

I'ts very simplistic to say that this defeat means the end of any notion of socialism - by that argument the defeats of 2015 and 2010 show that nobody wants a centrist agenda either.

 

Except we haven't had a truly socialist government in my life time but people were happy with 13 years of NL. I'm up for giving a more radical left wing government a go. Its not me you need to persuade though. 

[Phil 6]

50 minutes ago, ewerk said:

It’s a bit of a leap from Andy Burnham to Kinnock. Dare I ask what the thought process was there?

 

There is no logic under that rock.  Burham is the most electable MP Labour have had since David Milliband, but neither are MPs.  Kinnock seems to understand why Labour lost  ---> link

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

5 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

There is no logic under that rock.  Burham is the most electable MP Labour have had since David Milliband, but neither are MPs.  Kinnock seems to understand why Labour lost  ---> link

 

If those are his views why didn't he stand as an independent?

[Dr Gloom 19735]

FFS

[Phil 6]

21 minutes ago, TheGingerQuiff said:

 

If those are his views why didn't he stand as an independent?

 

Fair point.  I thought the same.

[Rayvin 4949]

Radical but potentially lethal to the Tories:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/16/lib-dems-tories-split-vote-labour

 

There'd be an almight power struggle though.

[Tom 13805]

Decent Article 

 

https://socialistworker.co.uk/art/49374/After+the+election%2C+keep+up+the+fight+against+Tory+rule 

[ewerk 26167]

17 minutes ago, Tom said:

Decent Article 

 

https://socialistworker.co.uk/art/49374/After+the+election%2C+keep+up+the+fight+against+Tory+rule 

Things to blame for the election defeat:

- Electoral system

- The media including the BBC

- Anyone in the Labour Party to the right of Corbyn 

- A lack of rallies

- Brexit

- Anyone bringing up the problem of antisemitism in the party

- The unions for failing to push for strikes

 

Things not to blame for Labour absolute catastrophe of a general election

- Jeremy Corbyn

 

Honestly Tom, if that’s how Labour are thinking then we’re in for at least ten years of Tory rule. It’s a complete refusal to face the truth and address the clear and obvious reason why the electorate didn’t vote Labour.

Edited December 17, 2019 by ewerk