Rayvin 4970 Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 (edited) Genuine question, what problem does an upper earnings cap solve? Â An upper earnings cap doesn't solve much at all - it's just a political gambit to appeal to the 'masses'. I suppose he could make the point that it combats income inequality to a degree, but I prefer my solution Edited January 10, 2017 by Rayvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26827 Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 Â You can't be serious. Are you just arguing for the sake of it or do you really think that it is sustainable to have earning gaps as high as what we're seeing? What I've suggested here doesn't even cap anyone's earnings, it just ensures that pay is more equitably distributed through the company. Â Also, most CEOs, the vast majority I would suggest, aren't great. If they up sticks it's no great loss, they can be replaced. They get replaced all the time anyway in the merry-go-round of directorships. Â Lose our best business leaders to other countries Like fuck would we, that's the same sort of nonsense as 'the banks will all leave if we hold them accountable!!!' Bollocks. Â Oh well if it's so easy to be a CEO then why aren't you one? I reckon it's much more difficult than you're suggesting. Moving a CEO abroad is much easier than moving a massive operation than a bank. I'm saying that as someone from a country that has seen incredible levels of brain drain over the last century and a half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4970 Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 Oh well if it's so easy to be a CEO then why aren't you one? I reckon it's much more difficult than you're suggesting. Moving a CEO abroad is much easier than moving a massive operation than a bank. I'm saying that as someone from a country that has seen incredible levels of brain drain over the last century and a half. Â That's quite an assumption. Â I reckon it isn't as difficult as I'm suggesting. I think it needs experience of course, but I've seen some very good ones and some very poor ones so far, and I'm only 8 years into my career. Look, I can see the point you're making but I just don't think it'll actually hit home. For one thing, moving to Europe will be more difficult post-Brexit anyway. For another thing, where would all of these CEOs go? It's not like they'd necessarily be able to walk into better paying jobs elsewhere. And they'd be leaving behind their lives, their homes, their families, all in pursuit of a bit more money? Because they didn't believe in paying their workers fairly? Not a good look, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26827 Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 (edited) His points appears to be that the damage being done by immigration is occurring at a working class level - i.e. low paid jobs are going to immigrants rather than the working classes. If this can be stopped, the majority's reason for supporting an exit from the EU is terminated; however, we do rely on immigrants for higher skilled work that we can't source within the UK as it stands, so he has identified that the influx of these people would need to be maintained. Â Are these jobs really going to immigrants prepared to work for less? The minimum wage has risen 15% in the last three years. The idea that people are working for buttons (outside the SE) isn't true. The unemployment rate is as long as it has been since 2008. Â If Corbyn really wants to help out workers then he should target zero hours contracts and similar unfair working practices. Attacking immigrants is much easier though. Edited January 10, 2017 by ewerk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26827 Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 That's quite an assumption.  I reckon it isn't as difficult as I'm suggesting. I think it needs experience of course, but I've seen some very good ones and some very poor ones so far, and I'm only 8 years into my career. Look, I can see the point you're making but I just don't think it'll actually hit home. For one thing, moving to Europe will be more difficult post-Brexit anyway. For another thing, where would all of these CEOs go? It's not like they'd necessarily be able to walk into better paying jobs elsewhere. And they'd be leaving behind their lives, their homes, their families, all in pursuit of a bit more money? Because they didn't believe in paying their workers fairly? Not a good look, really.  Not agreeing with a salary cap does not equate to not paying your workers fairly.  I'm not saying every single CEO will up sticks and fuck off to another country but the best ones (the ones we need to keep) will of course have little trouble in finding employment abroad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4970 Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 Are these jobs really going to immigrants prepared to work for less? The minimum wage has risen 15% in the last three years. The idea that people are working for buttons isn't true. The unemployment rate is as long as it has been since 2008. Â If Corbyn really wants to help out workers then he should target zero hours contracts and similar unfair working practices. Attacking immigrants is much easier though. Â Speaking as someone who employs low wage immigrants, I can safely confirm to you that European people of generally higher competence and educational standard are available much more cheaply than the same standard in British people. So that is perhaps what is meant. Â On Zero Hours contracts, you're right. Good thing he has targeted those... Â http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jeremy-corbyn-vows-ban-zero-8535174 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26827 Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 Speaking as someone who employs low wage immigrants, I can safely confirm to you that European people of generally higher competence and educational standard are available much more cheaply than the same standard in British people. So that is perhaps what is meant. Â On Zero Hours contracts, you're right. Good thing he has targeted those... Â http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jeremy-corbyn-vows-ban-zero-8535174 Â Okay so you're now saying that we should reject the more capable foreigner in favour of keeping Britain British? Wow, quite the Billy Racist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26827 Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 And look at how the country stood up and paid attention to that call from Corbyn. Six months ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4970 Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 Not agreeing with a salary cap does not equate to not paying your workers fairly.  I'm not saying every single CEO will up sticks and fuck off to another country but the best ones (the ones we need to keep) will of course have little trouble in finding employment abroad.  Can you name a couple? Like, a couple of really really good CEOs that we couldn't do without? I can't. Can think of plenty of shit ones though.  If the best ones leave they'll be replaced, and there are plenty of capable people in the ranks of directors around the country. CEOs are just the ones at the top at the minute.  Aside from this of course, I'm not even proposing that their pay is decreased or capped necessarily - I'm proposing that it's tied to the average earnings of their employees. So that if they (the CEO) want higher pay, they have to achieve this for everyone who works for them. What might happen that could be detrimental, would be that certain industries end up attracting far better CEOs than others - for instance, banking would still be subject to high rates of pay as I suspect their average pay level is a lot higher than, say, supermarkets. But it could even be tailored per industry, and used as an incentivising factor to support any industry which is ailing - for instance you could be more liberal with the cap in the steel industry, and attract better CEOs.  Ultimately, the effect of this would be to hopefully increase company performance by motivating employees to achieve the best possible results in the same form as CEOs are, and in turn ensuring that companies pay their staff fairly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4970 Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 Okay so you're now saying that we should reject the more capable foreigner in favour of keeping Britain British? Wow, quite the Billy Racist. Â It would certainly sound that way if these were my views we were debating and not Corbyn's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4970 Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 And look at how the country stood up and paid attention to that call from Corbyn. Six months ago. Â Hey, you said he should be targeting it, I demonstrated that he did. Whether anyone paid attention to it is beside the point presently as you're trying to discredit his stance, not comment on his overall effectiveness. We all know he's not effective. Now you and I know that his views make more sense than you thought they did half an hour ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26827 Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 (edited) Can you name a couple? Like, a couple of really really good CEOs that we couldn't do without? I can't. Can think of plenty of shit ones though. Â If the best ones leave they'll be replaced, and there are plenty of capable people in the ranks of directors around the country. CEOs are just the ones at the top at the minute. Â Aside from this of course, I'm not even proposing that their pay is decreased or capped necessarily - I'm proposing that it's tied to the average earnings of their employees. So that if they (the CEO) want higher pay, they have to achieve this for everyone who works for them. What might happen that could be detrimental, would be that certain industries end up attracting far better CEOs than others - for instance, banking would still be subject to high rates of pay as I suspect their average pay level is a lot higher than, say, supermarkets. But it could even be tailored per industry, and used as an incentivising factor to support any industry which is ailing - for instance you could be more liberal with the cap in the steel industry, and attract better CEOs. Â Ultimately, the effect of this would be to hopefully increase company performance by motivating employees to achieve the best possible results in the same form as CEOs are, and in turn ensuring that companies pay their staff fairly. Â I don't have a fantasy CEO team so I'm not up to date with the latest hot names but the fact that 40% of the FTSE 100 CEOs are foreign born shows that our country's biggest companies are recruiting the best in the world. Not just putting into place the first idiot who applies. The market for highly skilled CEOs is international. That is why they get the big bucks. Edited January 10, 2017 by ewerk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26827 Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 It would certainly sound that way if these were my views we were debating and not Corbyn's. Â You appear to be supporting Corbyn's views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4970 Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 I don't have a fantasy CEO team so I'm not up to date with the latest hot names but the fact that 40% of the FTSE 100 CEOs are foreign born shows that our country's biggest companies are recruiting the best in the world. Not just putting into place the first idiot who applies. The market for highly skilled CEOs is international. That is why they get the big bucks. Â Well, now they'd have to prove themselves with the added challenge of stakeholder management rather than a shareholder only approach, wouldn't they? If they really are the best, they'll be fine. More to the point, they'd actually be doing some good to people's lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26827 Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 Well, now they'd have to prove themselves with the added challenge of stakeholder management rather than a shareholder only approach, wouldn't they? If they really are the best, they'll be fine. More to the point, they'd actually be doing some good to people's lives. Â Except they wouldn't take the job in the first place with that restriction when they can get a job elsewhere without that problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26827 Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 Answer me this, is CEO pay currently depressing worker pay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4970 Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 You appear to be supporting Corbyn's views. Â I'm just putting over what his views are. I support the sentiment behind them and accept that, realistically, he has to make some manner of attempt at a political solution rather than an idealistic one. But with that said, I don't want to see any of my foreign friends or colleagues deported, and would prefer for us to have full single market access with no caveats. So no, on this I am not fully aligned with Corbyn. I am capable of understanding the position he is in, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26827 Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 So where is he standing in all this? He's 'not completely wed' to the idea of free movement. That is fence sitting big time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4970 Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 Answer me this, is CEO pay currently depressing worker pay?  Base pay, no. Bonuses quite possibly, if tied to profit. If it is in the CEO's interests to pay people as little as possible, they will. It makes the company more profitable and makes them look more successful. My company does it, I'm sure 99.9% of companies elsewhere do it too. If the CEO is motivated to ensure that employees are paid fairly relative to the performance of the company, then they will ensure that this is done. Since the economic slowdown, wages have been squeezed and executive pay has risen.  https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/aug/08/uks-top-bosses-earned-10-pay-rise-2015-average-salary-hit-55m - Executive pay  https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/jul/27/uk-joins-greece-at-bottom-of-wage-growth-league-tuc-oecd - Wages in general  As such, we need to align executives interests with those of the people who work for them. This would be a way of achieving that. I really don't understand what the issue you have with this is, especially as, and I've now said this three times, there wouldn't necessarily be any impact on their salaries depending on the levels set and how fairly they pay their staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4970 Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 There you go:  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/09/jeremy-corbyn-uk-is-better-off-out-of-eu-with-managed-migration  Believes we can be better off out, wants single market and immigration controls (I know, impossible, but the Tories are saying the same sorts of things), wants economic restructuring so that employing migrants simply isn't as advantageous as employing Brits.  All sorts of Labour people BTL on the Guardian are up in arms about it, people talking about defections to the Lib Dems and so on.   So he wants tariff free access to the single market but wants the ability to reject freedom of movement and also to undercut European rivals by providing state aid to targeted industries? This is the same sort of idiocy coming from the pro-Brexit Tories.   Which is what I said tbf. The only difference is that with his plans for low paid workers, his version might actually have legs. If he can make hiring British people simply more appealing than hiring immigrants, then the market will reject the aspects of freedom of movement that people are actually concerned about - low paid workers. No, I don't know how he would do this - but I don't think the Brexit Tories have come up with anything approaching that as an explanation of how the same goal might be achieved.  His position seems to be that we need freedom of movement at a middle class level to ensure that vital public services (the NHS) are maintained, but that it needs to be stopped at a working class level. He didn't use those terms but I'm just calling it for what it is.  We've done this bit of the conversation already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26827 Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 Oh, okay. I'll just fuck off then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew 4277 Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 Genuine question, what problem does an upper earnings cap solve? So, that got buried pretty quickly, anyone else have a decent answer for this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4970 Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 So, that got buried pretty quickly, anyone else have a decent answer for this? Â I assume you wanted more than just my response? I did reply... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4970 Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 Oh, okay. I'll just fuck off then. Â I would actually welcome your thoughts on the last post on executive pay. I don't think we can push any further on Corbyn - you don't like him and think he's utterly hopeless, but his positions in my view do make a certain amount of sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew 4277 Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 I assume you wanted more than just my response? I did reply... Â Indeed, no offence meant, I just prefer not to take a single source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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