PaddockLad 14767 Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 Anyone seen @@Rayvin and dear old Noam in the same room? A: There are many factors but there are some that are pretty common, certainly for the United States and Europe from which I have just returned, incidentally. One factor that is common and which is very significant is the Neo Liberal programme that was instituted globally, roughly around 35 years ago, around 1980 or a little before and picking up afterwards. These are programmes that were designed in such a way that they marginalize and cast aside a considerable majority of the population. So in the United States if you take a look at say the Trump voters, they are not the poorest people. They have homes, they have jobs, and they have small businesses. They may not have the jobs they like but they are not starving and are not living on US$ 2 a day. These are people who have been stuck for 30 years. Their history and their own image of life and history and the country is- that they have worked hard all their lives, they have done all the right things. They have families, they go to Church and they have done everything right just as their parents did. They’ve been moving forward, which they expected to continue: that their children would be better off than they are, but it hasn’t happened. It stopped. As if they are in a line, in which they were moving forward and it stopped. Ahead of them in the line are people who have just shot up into the stratosphere: that is Neo Liberalism. It concentrates wealth in tiny sectors. They don’t mind that, because part of the American mythology is that you work hard and you get rewards. It is not what happens but that fits the picture, the mythology. The people behind them are the ones they resent. This is not untypical; scapegoating. Blame your problems on those who are even worse off than you. And their conception is that the Federal Government is their enemy, which works for the people behind them. That the Federal Government gives Food Stamps to people who don’t want to work, that it gives welfare payments to women who drive in rich cars to welfare offices. (These are) images that Ronald Reagan concocted. Their thinking is that, ‘the Federal Government is helping to put them in line ahead of me, but nobody is working for me’. That picture is all over the West. A large part of it was behind the Brexit vote, in the United States they would blame Mexican immigrants, or Afro Americans, in the UK they would blame the Polish immigrants, in France the North Africans and in Austria the Syrian immigrants. The choice of target depends on the society, but the phenomenon is pretty similar. The general nature is pretty similar. There are streaks of racism, xenophobia, sexism, and opposition to gay rights and all sorts of things. And they coalesce when economic and social policies have been designed in such a way which essentially ignores these people and their concerns and doesn’t work for them -- and seems to them to work against them. - See more at: http://www.dailymirror.lk/120620/EXCLUSIVE-Neo-Liberal-policies-are-the-cause-for-world-strife-Prof-Noam-Chomsky#sthash.89JbItlP.dpuf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 I really need to read more of his work. I think I've been exposed to it through people like Monbiot (and actually just talking to people makes it clear why some of these phenomena are occurring) but I've not really read much Chomsky directly. But aye, that's a good post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26667 Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Tories until at least 2025. To the surprise of absolutely no one. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/02/labour-election-jeremy-corbyn-fabian-society?CMP=share_btn_tw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Yep, saw that this morning. A shame, but if people want the Tories there's not much anyone can do about it. I suspect Corbyn will go in the nearish future, especially given that the unions are saying this now. Wonder how many members Labour will haemorrhage when that happens... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26667 Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Well they're giving him until 2019 to improve things. 16 months might be the right length of time for a fresh face to make an impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Well they're giving him until 2019 to improve things. 16 months might be the right length of time for a fresh face to make an impact. I don't think he'll last that long. He'll go this year IMO. The thing is, the likelihood is that they'll replace him with someone less left wing. Which in turn means I won't be able to vote for them, sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19930 Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Canny review of the year that was from Mr Pie [tweet] [/tweet] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26667 Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 The thing is, the likelihood is that they'll replace him with someone less left wing. Which in turn means I won't be able to vote for them, sadly. Letting the Tories win even more handsomely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Letting the Tories win even more handsomely. Don't care, not compromising any more. I'm not voting for them, so the blame lies with those who are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30644 Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 Some great logic there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 Some great logic there By 'them' I meant the Tories, just in case that wasn't clear. But look, I'm not voting for things I don't believe in anymore. I'm comfortable with this because 1 - my vote doesn't matter; and 2 - if Labour revert to what they were then there's little meaningful choice available to anyone anyway. I'm genuinely considering simply not voting. Or perhaps destroying my ballot. Both meaningless gestures but that's what politics is all about, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26667 Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 2 - if Labour revert to what they were then there's little meaningful choice available to anyone anyway. You don't see a difference between the current Tory government and Blair's Labour? Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 (edited) You don't see a difference between the current Tory government and Blair's Labour? Really? I don't see the difference between two governments who both believe in unchecked Neoliberalism. I'll happily admit that I would far prefer Labour to the Tories, but I won't vote for them just on that basis. Edited January 4, 2017 by Rayvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26667 Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 You won't vote for them on the basis that you prefer them to the alternative? This is some strange shit, right here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 You won't vote for them on the basis that you prefer them to the alternative? This is some strange shit, right here. I won't vote for them on the basis that they aren't putting forward anything I believe in. Thus, they are far inferior to my own personal view of the political options that should exist. If I vote for them, I'm just reinforcing the status quo. I can still prefer them to win, but not ahead of my principles. if I consider that voting Labour would constitute shooting myself in the foot, and that voting Tory would be shooting myself in both feet, then I would argue that by taking a stand and arguing that I should have an option for not being shot in the foot at all, I am remaining true to what I believe in. Even if that means I end up being shot in both feet by default. You want me to be pragmatic. I'm determined to remain principled. That's all this is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26667 Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 It's babbling nonsense is what it is. Basically there's no one who lives up to your lofty principles so you're not voting for anyone. You're unlikely to find a party that matches your exact needs that can in any way affect power so you may as well vote for the next best alternative. That's life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 It's babbling nonsense is what it is. Basically there's no one who lives up to your lofty principles so you're not voting for anyone. You're unlikely to find a party that matches your exact needs that can in any way affect power so you may as well vote for the next best alternative. That's life. Corbyn offered an outlet for my 'lofty principles' and in fairness, there's also the Greens. But as you say, they're not likely to get near power. If I don't vote for anyone, it'll be because the whole charade is pointless, not because there aren't options. What chance does alternative thought have in making inroads if people just vote based on the least bad scenario, which is what you're asking me to do? You're effectively relegating democracy to a two party solution consisting of positions not all that far apart from each other. Which is what exactly what we have, in fairness. I just can't stomach voting for it. I couldn't even before Corbyn actually, all he has done is delayed my total disaffection with politics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26667 Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 As someone who truly has nothing to vote for I think your attitude is foolish but that's your democratic right. For now at least... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 As someone who truly has nothing to vote for I think your attitude is foolish but that's your democratic right. For now at least... I respect your opinion, as ever. In fairness, we don't know what will follow Corbyn yet, so it's ultimately too early for me to make blanket statements about what I will do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 35073 Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 "I respect your stupidity." "And I respect your opinion." This is like a slightly more adult version of History Today. [emoji38] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 ewerk is entitled to his opinion on my thoughts. I've stopped short of calling him a useful idiot for the establishment with his viewpoint on this, but he'd likely say the same about me vis-a-vis the Tories Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30644 Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 ewerk is entitled to his opinion on my thoughts. I've stopped short of calling him a useful idiot for the establishment with his viewpoint on this, but he'd likely say the same about me vis-a-vis the Tories Indeed. Whichever way you look at it, you're a pair of tools Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26667 Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 I have never said I respect him! I've simply tried to be polite in my insults and resisted the urge to call him an idealistic fuckwit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 (edited) Indeed. Whichever way you look at it, you're a pair of tools Without doubt. Edited January 4, 2017 by Rayvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 I have never said I respect him! I've simply tried to be polite in my insults and resisted the urge to call him an idealistic fuckwit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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