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10 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Unlike Brexit, where the loss of sovereignty to the EU was imaginary, there is a huge deficit of sovereignty in Scotland. Ironically it was Brexit that underlined this to me, the country was forcibly removed from the EU against its will. Now that is not a little thing, its huge, and shows the UK up for what it is.

 

Perhaps you haven't realised that Scotland is actually a different country? The people do not want to be ruled by the far right nutters we have in Westminster, but have no say in it. With independence, they can forge there own destiny, as a progressive nation. Why do you think they can't be successful in this?

well, they will be a lot poorer outside the union, right? that's what i don't get. just as with brexit - why vote for something, which all the evidence suggests would make you poorer?

i completely understand the frustration about the tories governing in westminster for a decade. boris doesn't represent them but he doesn't represent me either - the same goes for lots of voters around the UK. if we all tried a bit harder we could vote the cunts out. 

of course i realise that it is an independent country but it's been part of the union for five hundred years. 

Edited by Dr Gloom
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16 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

I don't agree there will be a hard border nor the need for one. Scotland would have to accept regulatory and customs checks in its ports. That would be a disadvantage as it would cause some expense and friction,  but nothing like England faces because trade with Europe is containerised and doesn't involve RoRo ferries to the best of my knowledge.

 

Small independent countries tend to do well i  the EU, no reason Scotland won't in time. I can envisage Edinburgh being a major financial centre and lots of international countries investing there. Tourism will be huge. Agriculture too, and still some oil left in the tank. But it's not about what Scotland has to gain, we've reached the point now of what has it got to lose? The UK is doomed and English nationalism is more to blame than Scottish nationalism. 

 

Agree completely with this bit. The Borders have a Tory MP though for precisely the same reason the Loyalist majority population of Northern Ireland voted against Brexit. It going to be bad news for their specific area. As far as the Borders are concerned I'm concerned about the potential for trafficking of people and the likes of fuel smuggling etc and the types of people involved with these activities appearing where I was brought up. 

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4 minutes ago, Kevin Carr's Gloves said:

Are you taking the piss?

 

i fucking cringe every time i hear god save the queen. it's hard to be patriotic when your national anthem beats the drum for religion and monarchy ffs 

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10 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

well, they will be a lot poorer outside of the union, right? that's what i don't get. just as with brecit - why would you vote to be poorer?

i completely understand the frustration about the tories governing in westminster for a decade. boris doesn't represent them but he doesn't represent me either - the same goes for lots of voters around the UK. if we all tried a bit harder we could vote the cunts out. 

of course i realise that it is an independent country but it's been part of the union for five hundred years. 

 

Why will it be poorer outside the union? Why won't it be like the Republic, which is substantially richer per capita than the UK? You see, this is part of the problem again. You assume that Scotland is being supported by England and can't prosper as an independent country. Lots of EU countries prove this to be wrong. The English, and Londoners in particular, are so patronising and willfully ignorant its unreal. 

Edited by Renton
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7 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

well, they will be a lot poorer outside the union, right? that's what i don't get. just as with brexit - why vote for something, which all the evidence suggests would make you poorer?

i completely understand the frustration about the tories governing in westminster for a decade. boris doesn't represent them but he doesn't represent me either - the same goes for lots of voters around the UK. if we all tried a bit harder we could vote the cunts out. 

of course i realise that it is an independent country but it's been part of the union for five hundred years. 

Explain please.

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7 minutes ago, Kevin Carr's Gloves said:

Are you taking the piss?

 

 

I don't get this either, can't see much wrong in Flower of Scotland or Scotland the Brave. God save the Queen however has a verse about slaughtering the Scottish. 

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Just now, Renton said:

 

Why will it be poorer outside the union? Why won't it be like the Republic, which is substantially richer per capita than the UK? You see, this is part of the problem again. You assume that Scotland is being supported by England and can't prosper as an independent country. Lots of EU countries prove this to be wrong. The English, and Lononers in particular, are patronising and willfully ignorant its unreal. 

i'm just going on what i've read. scotland benefits from high per capita public spending, compared to other parts of the UK

 

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Kevin Carr's Gloves said:

Explain please.

this analysis suggests independence would leave scots £2k a year worse off

https://reaction.life/independence-would-leave-scots-2000-a-year-worse-off/

is there evidence that i've missed which suggests independence would make the country richer?  

Edited by Dr Gloom
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1 minute ago, Dr Gloom said:

i'm just going on what i've read. scotland benefits from high per capita public spending, compared to other parts of the UK

 

 

 

 

 

That's because it isn't independent though. 

 

The GDP per capita of the RoI is 79,000 USD. The UK is 43,000 USD. Why can't Scotland perform as well if not better than the RoI? It will thrive in the EU imo whilst England will decline. 

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1 minute ago, Dr Gloom said:

this analysis suggests independence would leave scots £2k a year worse off

https://reaction.life/independence-would-leave-scots-2000-a-year-worse-off/

is there evidence that i've missed which suggests independence would make the country richer?  

Yes, you've completely discounted the benefits of independence! I mean oil isn't worth much at the moment, but still its something. Scotland will be one of the few English speaking countries in the EU and has much more natural resources than England. Plenty of room to expand too. 

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Just now, Renton said:

 

That's because it isn't independent though. 

 

The GDP per capita of the RoI is 79,000 USD. The UK is 43,000 USD. Why can't Scotland perform as well if not better than the RoI? It will thrive in the EU imo whilst England will decline. 

rejoining the EU is man reason as far as i can tell for indyref 2. i didn't really get it first time around, and neither did the majority of scottish people, but it makes more sense if that's the endgame. not that this tory government will allow another vote any time soon. 

i completely understand why nationalism is alluring to lots of people up there - particularly with these cunts in charge. i just think it would be a bit sad if they go alone. my granddad was scottish and i've always been fond of the place. the idea of a hard border is just depressing. 

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4 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

That's because it isn't independent though. 

 

The GDP per capita of the RoI is 79,000 USD. The UK is 43,000 USD. Why can't Scotland perform as well if not better than the RoI? It will thrive in the EU imo whilst England will decline. 

I'd like to see what that GDP is if you remove the billions funnelled through Ireland to avoid paying any real tax.

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1 minute ago, Dr Gloom said:

this analysis suggests independence would leave scots £2k a year worse off

https://reaction.life/independence-would-leave-scots-2000-a-year-worse-off/

is there evidence that i've missed which suggests independence would make the country richer?  

That's an opinion piece by a Unionist with cherry picked details. Also those are based on how things have been and if the UK were still in the EU then actually you would have a point. However on January the 1st the UK leaves the EU and all bets are off as no one has any clue how the Uk will fare. It could be that Scotland in the EU could be much better off than Scotland in the UK. We just don't know. WHat we do know is that Scotland is ruled by a Government it very rarely votes for and that rule has been detrimental to Scotland on numerous occasions.

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The only valid argument against Scotland leaving the Union is trade. 60% of Scotland's exports are to the rest of the UK. If you start putting borders up then that's going to be hit badly.

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5 minutes ago, Renton said:

Yes, you've completely discounted the benefits of independence! I mean oil isn't worth much at the moment, but still its something. Scotland will be one of the few English speaking countries in the EU and has much more natural resources than England. Plenty of room to expand too. 

Hydrogen is the future for Scotland.

 

https://www.itm-power.com/news/first-project-to-deliver-a-10mw-electrolyser-to-glasgow-facility#:~:text=A proposed green hydrogen production,within the next two years.

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Just now, Dr Gloom said:

rejoining the EU is man reason as far as i can tell for indyref 2. i didn't really get it first time around, and neither did the majority of scottish people, but it makes more sense if that's the endgame. not that this tory government will allow another vote any time soon. 

i completely understand why nationalism is alluring to lots of people up there - particularly with these cunts in charge. i just think it would be a bit sad if they go alone. my granddad was scottish and i've always been fond of the place. the idea of a hard border is just depressing. 

 

It's not rejoining the EU that is the issue imo, its that Brexit showed the fundamental issues with the union for what they are. Scotland has been relegated to a satellite of a de facto English nation. It has no control over its resources or destiny. If you accept Scotland is a country then you have to accept this is not sustainable. 

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1 minute ago, Kevin Carr's Gloves said:

That's an opinion piece by a Unionist with cherry picked details. Also those are based on how things have been and if the UK were still in the EU then actually you would have a point. However on January the 1st the UK leaves the EU and all bets are off as no one has any clue how the Uk will fare. It could be that Scotland in the EU could be much better off than Scotland in the UK. We just don't know. WHat we do know is that Scotland is ruled by a Government it very rarely votes for and that rule has been detrimental to Scotland on numerous occasions.

i don't disagree with that last bit. 

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1 minute ago, ewerk said:

The only valid argument against Scotland leaving the Union is trade. 60% of Scotland's exports are to the rest of the UK. If you start putting borders up then that's going to be hit badly.

 

The borders will be in container ports in Scotland. There can't be a hard border on the A1 or M74 for the same reasons as Ireland.

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6 minutes ago, ewerk said:

I'd like to see what that GDP is if you remove the billions funnelled through Ireland to avoid paying any real tax.

 

I know, but still, RoI has done very well as a small independent nation in the EU, that's the point.

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4 minutes ago, ewerk said:

The only valid argument against Scotland leaving the Union is trade. 60% of Scotland's exports are to the rest of the UK. If you start putting borders up then that's going to be hit badly.

Now I may be wrong here but I know that number is very hard to quantify. I am sure I read somewhere it also counts goods sold to England which are then sent on to the EU. Again I may be wrong here.

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1 minute ago, ewerk said:

So how do you join the EU with a massive open border with a non-EU country?

 

Goods are checked at the borders of Scotland with the EU, like the proposed plan in the WA. Container ports and airports. rUK will rejoin EEA at some point anyway. 

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