Monkeys Fist 38819 Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 12 minutes ago, adios said: Dad jokes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 9010 Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 12 hours ago, adios said: Ok, so if I'm reading you right, we agree that there is a core biological engine surrounded by data (experiences/education/environment) that it feeds off? Yeah, that's what I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 I wonder if other football forums have threads about miscreant players that end up where this one has, or if it's just us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeys Fist 38819 Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 Didnt they purge all mention of him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 1 hour ago, The Fish said: Yeah, that's what I believe. Which is how we make decisions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 33 minutes ago, Rayvin said: I wonder if other football forums have threads about miscreant players that end up where this one has, or if it's just us. Only where @The Fish is concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30452 Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 18 hours ago, adios said: ICWUDT. I couldn't help it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 9010 Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 2 hours ago, adios said: Which is how we make decisions? It gives us the apparatus to make decisions. Someone with a genetic intelligence can still make bad choices, and someone without can make good choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 9010 Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 2 hours ago, adios said: Only where @The Fish is concerned. Hey, I was happy calling him a stupid bellend, you're the one diverting this into a treatise on the nature of free will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 You're the one arguing with nutters about free will and gravity. I hold you completely responsible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 12 minutes ago, The Fish said: It gives us the apparatus to make decisions. Someone with a genetic intelligence can still make bad choices, and someone without can make good choices. If it's not the apparatus itself, then what is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 9010 Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 22 minutes ago, adios said: If it's not the apparatus itself, then what is? Perhaps it's better to say a facet of latent intelligence is the apparatus to make decisions. A facet that needs nurturing and exploring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted May 27, 2017 Share Posted May 27, 2017 So how do we choose to nurture and explore? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 9010 Posted May 27, 2017 Share Posted May 27, 2017 3 hours ago, adios said: So how do we choose to nurture and explore? The desire to learn is, imo, instinctive (and we see it throughout nature) and while the facility to nurture and explore may be the responsibility of agents of socialisation to begin with, there will come a point where it falls upon the individual to continue nurturing and exploring, or abandon it. The ability to make that choice will come from socialisation e.g. a kid from the projects who had no schooling, no parenting, will not necessarily choose to get his nose in a book because he's not been taught it's value. Conversely, he may see the impact that a lack of education has had on his peer group and his family and choose not to follow the same path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted May 27, 2017 Share Posted May 27, 2017 But where does any of that depart from choosing based on biology reacting to prior/new knowledge? 44 minutes ago, The Fish said: The desire to learn is, imo, instinctive Biology (and we see it throughout nature) and while the facility to nurture and explore may be the responsibility of agents of socialisation to begin with Experience, there will come a point where it falls upon the individual to continue nurturing and exploring, or abandon it. The ability to make that choice will come from socialisation e.g. a kid from the projects who had no schooling, no parenting, will not necessarily choose to get his nose in a book because he's not been taught it's value. Experience Conversely, he may see the impact that a lack of education has had on his peer group and his family and choose not to follow the same path. Experience 3 You seem to be saying that because he can go different routes, he therefore has the choice. I'm not saying A/B don't exist, I'm saying it's an illusion that they are based on anything other than what's come before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 9010 Posted May 27, 2017 Share Posted May 27, 2017 1 hour ago, adios said: But where does any of that depart from choosing based on biology reacting to prior/new knowledge? You seem to be saying that because he can go different routes, he therefore has the choice. I'm not saying A/B don't exist, I'm saying it's an illusion that they are based on anything other than what's come before. But it's also based on what hasn't come before. So you have free will to choose between A/B because despite all the miles of rails you've trundled down, there is still the potential to jump the tracks and go a route that is in direct conflict with experience, socialisation etc. I may have misunderstood, but you're suggesting that free will doesn't exist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted May 27, 2017 Share Posted May 27, 2017 Yes, I believe it's an illusion. You can choose something at odds with your experience only because that's what your machinery has decided it's time for. Waking up one day and saying this shit isn't for me, doesn't suggest free will. I don't see you listing anything outside of the realms of that machinery. Take any simple choice (probably best for argument's sake) and find something that we aren't choosing because of our chemicals/wiring/experiences. Show me the added element/s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted May 27, 2017 Share Posted May 27, 2017 Free will exists within the framework of biological and environmental influences. This architecture is a limit on free will but not to the point that free will is erased completely. Just that in its action 'free will' is continually in a state of flux and cannot be deterministic in isolation. In a lot of ways it might be said exercising free will has to be learned or taught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted May 27, 2017 Share Posted May 27, 2017 (edited) I don't believe in determinism either because God does play dice. But I keep getting back nebulous ideas that it must exist within this framework. Can you give me a solid example? Edited May 27, 2017 by adios Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted May 27, 2017 Share Posted May 27, 2017 20 minutes ago, adios said: I don't believe in determinism either because God does play dice. But I keep getting back nebulous ideas that it must exist within this framework. Can you give me a solid example? I agree with you 100% on this, reached the same conclusion myself. That said, the only thing you could add in that -would- give free will, is the soul. So if free will exists, so must 'the soul'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted May 27, 2017 Share Posted May 27, 2017 31 minutes ago, adios said: I don't believe in determinism either because God does play dice. But I keep getting back nebulous ideas that it must exist within this framework. Can you give me a solid example? Chess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted May 27, 2017 Share Posted May 27, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted May 27, 2017 Share Posted May 27, 2017 58 minutes ago, Park Life said: Chess. Your example is something that pre-sentient primitive AI can do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted May 27, 2017 Share Posted May 27, 2017 46 minutes ago, Park Life said: Highly successful man believes he's awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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