Rayvin 4964 Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 1 minute ago, Renton said:  But we are where we are. This thread is about Biden, why are you blaming him for shit that has happened over decades. The danger of nuclear weapons is that they could be used as escalation from conventional warfare. In a conventional square go between Russia and the US, Russia would be annihilated and may feel their only option to save face is to use tactical nukes.  I mean this thread is really a discussion about US politics IMO, it just changes name based on whoever is President. It was previously a Trump thread, no?  I don't think Russia would commit to their own actual annihilation over a loss of face in a ground war with the US that they know for sure they wouldn't win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17901 Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 12 minutes ago, Rayvin said: Estonia apparently prepared to step up for Western values, even if Europe and the US won't:  We stand united with Ukraine. We will not walk away. We will continue to support you in every possible way. I praise the Ukrainian leaders who, despite constant provocations, remain calm and express willingness to solve this conflict peacefully. Russia must end the intolerable provocations and stop fuelling the conflict, which has been ongoing for eight years. Moscow should immediately and unconditionally withdraw its forces from Ukraine’s territory and its immediate vicinity. We strongly condemn all military and hybrid actions against Ukraine. We regret that despite diplomatic efforts, there are no signs of willingness to de-escalate - quite the opposite, [with] the buildup of Russian forces continues, including in Belarus. I align myself with everyone who wishes we had a way to secure peace through the force of diplomacy and dialogue. Indeed, it is a decisive moment in European history. President Putin will answer to future generations for his violent actions. As European and western leaders, we also have the responsibility to step up to our values [and] our commitment to a Europe that is united and at peace. We regret every single life lost. It is our duty to protect our common values and the democracy we all helped to build. A threat to Ukraine is a threat to the security of Europe. The minimum we can do is to step up our practical support to Ukraine, which Estonia has done and will continue to do. In the EU, we will deliver on a massive package of sanctions and do so swiftly and decisively. But most importantly we must keep the door to EU and Nato open for Ukraine and we must have concrete next steps for further cooperation and integration. We know you will continue to value democracy and remain on the path of reforms. Eventually we will welcome you as the member of the European Union - you belong in Europe. We support Ukraine’s independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity. We remain fully committed to the policy of non-recognition of illegal annexation of Ukraine’s territories. Ukraine has a right to defend its borders and independence and we continue helping Ukraine to build its military capabilities to stand against the aggression.  I can't see what they're saying other nations, including the UK and US, have already said? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17901 Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:  I mean this thread is really a discussion about US politics IMO, it just changes name based on whoever is President. It was previously a Trump thread, no?  I don't think Russia would commit to their own actual annihilation over a loss of face in a ground war with the US that they know for sure they wouldn't win.  But you've rightly described Putin as a psychopath. Its a serious risk imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 4 minutes ago, Meenzer said:  I liked the Kenyan statement    That is indeed a great statement. The smaller nations, who know they have the most to lose from a collapse of international order, making themselves heard - this is why it is so important to stand up for these norms, so that countries like Kenya, Estonia and Ukraine have a voice and the ability to govern themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 1 minute ago, Renton said:  But you've rightly described Putin as a psychopath. Its a serious risk imo.  Psychopath doesn't mean he has no sense of self preservation. We have psychopaths in office around the world, running businesses, at the top end of society in many places. They don't get there by making suicide plays just to spite people. They get there by preying on weakness and not giving a damn about anything other than their own objectives. None of Putin's objectives will be "get Russia nuked". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 7 minutes ago, Renton said:  I can't see what they're saying other nations, including the UK and US, have already said?  They're saying they'll do anything possible to support, which at least reads as though it includes military support. At least it could be read that way. They 'regret every single life lost' which could also be read that way, and they want to integrate Ukraine into NATO and Europe, clearly stated. Have we done that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17901 Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 Just now, Rayvin said:  Psychopath doesn't mean he has no sense of self preservation. We have psychopaths in office around the world, running businesses, at the top end of society in many places. They don't get there by making suicide plays just to spite people. They get there by preying on weakness and not giving a damn about anything other than their own objectives. None of Putin's objectives will be "get Russia nuked".  I agree but there's always a risk things can escalate out of control should NATO and Russia clash in direct conflict. So if I've got you right here, you wanted NATO to say to Russia, if you invade any more of their sovereign territory we'll respond militarily. You think that would have called Putin's bluff. I don't think it would have. I think it would lead to direct conflict, with unknowable but potentially catastrophic results. As Ukraine are not a NATO member, I'm not wanting to play those odds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 2 minutes ago, Renton said:  I agree but there's always a risk things can escalate out of control should NATO and Russia clash in direct conflict. So if I've got you right here, you wanted NATO to say to Russia, if you invade any more of their sovereign territory we'll respond militarily. You think that would have called Putin's bluff. I don't think it would have. I think it would lead to direct conflict, with unknowable but potentially catastrophic results. As Ukraine are not a NATO member, I'm not wanting to play those odds.  Then I think we've come to some semblance of a position we can both appreciate. Ukraine is in Europe, trying to join NATO and the EU. It is a potential friend and ally, under threat from a historic oppressor. I would want us to defend them because I don't think someone as calculating as Putin actually has the balls for a proper head on fight with the US.  Maybe I'm wrong, it's not me making the decision either way - but there are consequences to our relative inaction here, and we'll be seeing them for years. I also think Biden's presidency will be defined by this to some extent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17901 Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:  Then I think we've come to some semblance of a position we can both appreciate. Ukraine is in Europe, trying to join NATO and the EU. It is a potential friend and ally, under threat from a historic oppressor. I would want us to defend them because I don't think someone as calculating as Putin actually has the balls for a proper head on fight with the US.  Maybe I'm wrong, it's not me making the decision either way - but there are consequences to our relative inaction here, and we'll be seeing them for years. I also think Biden's presidency will be defined by this to some extent.  Okay, I get you, agree with a lot but not all you've said. Problem with geopolitics is there is no control group, you can never be sure what the best action would have been, even in hindsight. Let's hope for a peaceful outcome for all our sakes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 Just now, Renton said:  Let's hope for a peaceful outcome for all our sakes.  Absolutely agree with this. De-escalation would be the best outcome by far and away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17901 Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 1 minute ago, Rayvin said:  Absolutely agree with this. De-escalation would be the best outcome by far and away.  Okay, I'm officially de-escalting this discussion.   Don't make me disagree with you any more, Rayvin. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 35067 Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 (edited) Successful de-escalation itt. Beautiful to see. Well done Comrade Rayvin and President Renton. Edited February 22, 2022 by Gemmill 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 Just now, Renton said:  Okay, I'm officially de-escalting this discussion.   Don't make me disagree with you any more, Rayvin.  Always a pleasure to debate with you, my friend  2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 35067 Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 Chicken Kiev for tea here tonight. Full scale invasion planned. All attempts at diplomacy have failed. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 14751 Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022  Powder puff shite from the completely compromised Johnson, who has enabled the son of a retired KGB colonel*  *NB those cunts never retire   Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asprilla 96 Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 Anyone else having trouble with their internet today? Â /itstherussians Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26652 Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 I never thought I'd see the day when Rayvin was parroting the Brexit Party line. Â Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26652 Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 1 hour ago, PaddockLad said:  Powder puff shite from the completely compromised Johnson, who has enabled the son of a retired KGB colonel*  *NB those cunts never retire    No surprise when a quarter of the cabinet have openly taken Russian cash. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 14751 Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 That list of fuckin traitors in full. I'm looking chiefly at sinister pound shop poppinjay/chancellor of the exchequer Rishi fuckin Sunak, whose father in law is in the top five of the richest human beings in history... what a fuckin cunt.... Â https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-report-donors-boris-johnson-conservative-party-2020-7 Â 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26652 Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 What is the possible justification for the acceptance of any form of foreign donation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 14751 Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 On the face of it theres no consequences, so to justify it they probably lied to themselves that there really aren't any, until today.....when there still aren't any, the leader of the opposition mentions it but not them personally. That's just not cricket old boy what what, tally ho, tea and biscuits jumped up useless fuckin talking shop cunts etc etc  1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19908 Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 Starmer might delay making much of this while finding Labour MPs are in the same shithole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 14751 Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 4 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said: Starmer might delay making much of this while finding Labour MPs are in the same shithole  Isn't it China with Labour?  The old Bazza Gardner 500K? 🤔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toonpack 6939 Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 4 hours ago, spongebob toonpants said: These two territories have been under Russian control since 2014 anyway. Â Â Not so sadly, of the area now stated by Putin as "independent" only one third has been subject to Russian separatism, the rest is under current Ukrainian control/sovereignty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19908 Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 8 minutes ago, PaddockLad said:  Isn't it China with Labour?  The old Bazza Gardner 500K? 🤔  why anyone would want to give that useless cunt any money is another matter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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