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Venables and Thompson


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I think I am probably the only one here who ever might come in the position of really making the decisions of what is happening to those people. Death penalty is no option anyway in Germany as it is forbidden by law, but would I really consider it at all? No never.The actions of the Bulgar murderers were absolutely shameful and disgusting and deserve the most severe punishment, But who does it help do take pure revenge? Wille be the parents happy? From most accounts I know punishment does not bring satisfaction at all. The pain remains. So why should I just kill another life when it is of no use at all?

 

And just on a side note. I found it funny how the News of the worls and the fake sheikh suffered a really bad bad defeat in the case about alleged muslim terrorists which apparently did cost the British tax payers millions and probably will cost the NOWT even more if there will be further claims...

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(including the ridiculous Australian one, the fact you even thought that could be true because you read it on Snopes shows that whatever this job is you're going to isnt the right one for you).

 

I never said the rumour was true, i merely said id read it. I also didnt say what my new job was, so for me to mention i had read a rumour in no way shows that this job 'isnt for me'.

 

The next time you read a rumour in the paper concerning a player coming to newcastle I shall remember to tell you that your job (whatever it may be) is not the one for you :D

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(including the ridiculous Australian one, the fact you even thought that could be true because you read it on Snopes shows that whatever this job is you're going to isnt the right one for you).

 

I never said the rumour was true, i merely said id read it. I also didnt say what my new job was, so for me to mention i had read a rumour in no way shows that this job 'isnt for me'.

 

The next time you read a rumour in the paper concerning a player coming to newcastle I shall remember to tell you that your job (whatever it may be) is not the one for you :D

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Whoa, what's that back there............... oh, it's the context! :blush:

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Executing two 10 year olds would have solved nowt.

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Also, changing the law for something like this (or other extremely rare/extraordinary crimes) would invariably, in my view, lead to bad law-making.

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Aye - and any three year old that spills a drink on the Metro is obviously a charva hooligan (or will be) and the choice is between an EXEMPLARY sentence (like blinding or 20 years) but perhaps we should just save time and money and hang them now...............

 

and kids who shout abuse at owld gadges like me - well killing is TOO GOOD FOR THEM - to the torture chambers, every one

 

10 year olds ARE NOT adults FFS - they are kids.

 

In this case bad kids, even evil kids but no-one ever treats kids the same way as adults because they are still growing up - remember

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I'm just curious here........is there any arguement that such a severe personality flaw as was evident in the two 10 year olds is unlikely to be ever fully eradicated from there 'mental make-up?' I wonder how much of your core personality is formed by that age. They displayed behaviour and a value system incredibly different from the norm.

 

Children are capable of acts of cruelty and what makes that so?

 

I'm wondering about the difference between children and adults here............is it that children have less empathy for their victims or that adults experience of life gives them more fear of the reprecusisions of their actions.

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I'm just curious here........is there any arguement that such a severe personality flaw as was evident in the two 10 year olds is unlikely to be ever fully eradicated from there 'mental make-up?' I wonder how much of your core personality is formed by that age. They displayed behaviour and a value system incredibly different from the norm.

 

Children are capable of acts of cruelty and what makes that so?

 

I'm wondering about the difference between children and adults here............is it that children have less empathy for their victims or that adults experience of life gives them more fear of the reprecusisions of their actions.

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Interesting - I think it's both. It never ceases to amaze me how cruel some children are to others i.e. bullies. Of course you get bullies in adult life albeit they tend to be more subtle, but cruel or at least insensitive behaviour (usually by conforming to groups) seems to be the norm at a young age.

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Also J69, if you had read the article you would see that they point out some of the rumours and the fact they're not true (including the ridiculous Australian one, the fact you even thought that could be true because you read it on Snopes shows that whatever this job is you're going to isnt the right one for you).

 

J69, from what you have said in this thread and from what you have said about your experience in A&E, I too would have serious concerns with you taking a job that might get you involved in issues like this. Last time I said something like this you went off in a huge strop and pointed out I don't know you. This is true, I am only going from my interpretation of your posts on here, so please don't be offended.

 

As for the Snopes article, I read that a while ago and thought it was obvious to the authors that the story was an obvious hoax, yet you are trying to use it to justify your argument? Pretty weak really.

 

It's funny, when I suggested that HTL might have been in favour of the Bulger killers being executed, he was outraged to the extent it led to a slanging match which eventually has stopped him posting on here. And yet here we are, with many more left wing or centre ground posters implying they should have got the death sentence, or a life sentence without parole, which is arguably worse.

 

I don't get it. They were 10 years old - I can't even imagine what I was like at that age but I know I am a completely different person now. For me, children as young of 10 can never be held fully responsible for their crimes, and thankfully the law (which I generally have faith in) agrees. What kind of soceity do people want to live in? One that gives children the responsibility of adults but none of the rights?

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I wasnt justifying anything. I looked up the case on wikipedia and it was linked to snopes. I simply pointed it out.

 

I know my new job will be tough and im sure i will have conflicting feelings towards the people I am working with but I can deal with that and I can threat them in an unbiased manner. I dont think you can really judge the types of people who work in A and E or in mental health settings without having closely worked with them. Some of the harshest criticism and piss taking of mental health patients ive heard has come out of the mouths of specialist mental health nurses.

 

I guarantee 9/10 mental health nurses would not be following the whole 'oh look our millions of pounds of taxpayers money has managed to reform them enough that they wont murder toddlers anymore, lets give them a medal' train of thought.

 

My feelings on the matter that I give out in here do not correspond with how i treat patients at work. This is a faceless message board where my views wont go any further. IM hardly likely to run off a load of abuse to patients at work and I am usually the one playing devils advocate on the patients behalf in front of the other nurses.

 

Once again, and this isnt me taking a 'huge strop', but for 2 strangers who dont know me to tell me im not good at the job ive been doing for years, and doing well, is quite offensive.

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I think I am probably the only one here who ever might come in the position of really making the decisions of what is happening to those people. Death penalty is no option anyway in Germany as it is forbidden by law, but would I really consider it at all? No never.The actions of the Bulgar murderers were absolutely shameful and disgusting and deserve the most severe punishment, But who does it help do take pure revenge? Wille be the parents happy? From most accounts I know punishment does not bring satisfaction at all. The pain remains. So why should I just kill another life when it is of no use at all?

 

And just on a side note. I found it funny how the News of the worls and the fake sheikh suffered a really bad bad defeat in the case about alleged muslim terrorists which apparently did cost the British tax payers millions and probably will cost the NOWT even more if there will be further claims...

166177[/snapback]

 

 

Sense (as usual) from our Jorman friend

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Theres an article on snopes regarding a rumour that 4weeks ago an 8 year old girl was raped and murdered in australia and that the man arrested for the murder was either venables or thompson who had been relocated over there! They are yet to agree whether its true or false.

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The article is here - the relevant bit is the bit at the bottom, it clearly is a false story:

 

http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/bulger.asp

 

Perhaps you'd like to explain why you felt the need to perpetuate these lies, and then use the defence of "I was only reporting what others have said"? The trouble with stories like this is they often lead to false identifications, and before you know it some innocent bloke is getting lynched by a bunch of ignorant scumbags.

 

As I've said J69, I find your view points a bit out of kilter with my experience of most people in the NHS - including A&E and mental health. But like you say, I don't know you, and it is possible to seperate your personal viewpoints from your professional work I suppose. What happened to teaching anyway?

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I think I am probably the only one here who ever might come in the position of really making the decisions of what is happening to those people. Death penalty is no option anyway in Germany as it is forbidden by law, but would I really consider it at all? No never.The actions of the Bulgar murderers were absolutely shameful and disgusting and deserve the most severe punishment, But who does it help do take pure revenge? Wille be the parents happy? From most accounts I know punishment does not bring satisfaction at all. The pain remains. So why should I just kill another life when it is of no use at all?

 

And just on a side note. I found it funny how the News of the worls and the fake sheikh suffered a really bad bad defeat in the case about alleged muslim terrorists which apparently did cost the British tax payers millions and probably will cost the NOWT even more if there will be further claims...

166177[/snapback]

 

On the death penalty, I agree with you about revenge , but what about purely from the point of view of removing 'undesirables' from the system? I don't mean in the specific instance of these two boys, but generally.

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I think I am probably the only one here who ever might come in the position of really making the decisions of what is happening to those people. Death penalty is no option anyway in Germany as it is forbidden by law, but would I really consider it at all? No never.The actions of the Bulgar murderers were absolutely shameful and disgusting and deserve the most severe punishment, But who does it help do take pure revenge? Wille be the parents happy? From most accounts I know punishment does not bring satisfaction at all. The pain remains. So why should I just kill another life when it is of no use at all?

 

And just on a side note. I found it funny how the News of the worls and the fake sheikh suffered a really bad bad defeat in the case about alleged muslim terrorists which apparently did cost the British tax payers millions and probably will cost the NOWT even more if there will be further claims...

166177[/snapback]

 

On the death penalty, I agree with you about revenge , but what about purely from the point of view of removing 'undesirables' from the system? I don't mean in the specific instance of these two boys, but generally.

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Sounds like the thin end of the wedge to me - this is how it started in Germany in the 30's is it not? Before you know it the group classed as undesirable will have spread to include all sorts of people - mentally ill for instance. No doubt there'd be eugenics as well, because that is an implicit answer to "the problem".

 

Any society that can kill a 10 year old child, regardless of what they have done, is not one I want to live in frankly.

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Sounds like the thin end of the wedge to me - this is how it started in Germany in the 30's is it not? Before you know it the group classed as undesirable will have spread to include all sorts of people - mentally ill for instance. No doubt there'd be eugenics as well, because that is an implicit answer to "the problem".

 

Any society that can kill a 10 year old child, regardless of what they have done, is not one I want to live in frankly.

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I've explicitly said I wasn't talking about the two boys, I would tend to agree with you on that.

 

I can see where you're coming from, but not every country that has the death penalty ends up with a final solution. I don't think that you can necessarily say that the sensible removal of the worst elements of society ends in the fairly horrific removal of people who just don't quite fit in.

 

I'm not necessarily advocating it as the only solution, but law & order appears to be in a fair bit of trouble all over the world and a solution needs to be found. Basic respect is out the window.

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"On the death penalty, I agree with you about revenge , but what about purely from the point of view of removing 'undesirables' from the system? I don't mean in the specific instance of these two boys, but generally."

 

I think we can allow the Germans to tell us EXACTLy where the killings of "undesireables" leads

 

You just have to think -"WHo is going to be making up the list" to know what will and did happen.................................

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The death penalty is the easy way out.

 

When i was ten i though the worst thing i could do was smash a window or steal, couldnt imagine the bringing up those lads would have had.

 

I dunno how u could judge them to death penalty? They were so young, i think prison would do it, for life..

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The death penalty is the easy way out.

 

When i was ten i though the worst thing i could do was smash a window or steal, couldnt imagine the bringing up those lads would have had.

 

I dunno how u could judge them to death penalty? They were so young, i think prison would do it, for life..

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I'm hoping that's not directed at me.

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Sounds like the thin end of the wedge to me - this is how it started in Germany in the 30's is it not? Before you know it the group classed as undesirable will have spread to include all sorts of people - mentally ill for instance. No doubt there'd be eugenics as well, because that is an implicit answer to "the problem".

 

Any society that can kill a 10 year old child, regardless of what they have done, is not one I want to live in frankly.

166435[/snapback]

 

I've explicitly said I wasn't talking about the two boys, I would tend to agree with you on that.

 

I can see where you're coming from, but not every country that has the death penalty ends up with a final solution. I don't think that you can necessarily say that the sensible removal of the worst elements of society ends in the fairly horrific removal of people who just don't quite fit in.

 

I'm not necessarily advocating it as the only solution, but law & order appears to be in a fair bit of trouble all over the world and a solution needs to be found. Basic respect is out the window.

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There's not a country in the world that has the death penalty that I'd want to live in.

 

I agree that crime is a problem, and that lack of respect is the root cause of much crime, and I honestly don't know what the solution is. But the really serious crimes such as murder are still incredibly low, especially in Europe where the death penalty has long sinced been abandoned. I am not aware it is increasing either. So, even if it is morally acceptable (which I emphatically think it is not), is there any need for the death penalty? I don't think there is.

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"On the death penalty, I agree with you about revenge , but what about purely from the point of view of removing 'undesirables' from the system? I don't mean in the specific instance of these two boys, but generally."

 

I think we can allow the Germans to tell us EXACTLy where the killings of "undesireables" leads

 

You just have to think -"WHo is going to be making up the list" to know what will and did happen.................................

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Sorry, but I see that argument similarly to the argument about arming the police. The US is always cited as the example as to why the police should not be armed, when it works well in countless other countries.

 

I agree that extreme caution would need to be exercised, but I would like to be open-minded about the possibility of keeping the option available.

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Theres an article on snopes regarding a rumour that 4weeks ago an 8 year old girl was raped and murdered in australia and that the man arrested for the murder was either venables or thompson who had been relocated over there! They are yet to agree whether its true or false.

166043[/snapback]

 

The article is here - the relevant bit is the bit at the bottom, it clearly is a false story:

 

http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/bulger.asp

 

Perhaps you'd like to explain why you felt the need to perpetuate these lies, and then use the defence of "I was only reporting what others have said"? The trouble with stories like this is they often lead to false identifications, and before you know it some innocent bloke is getting lynched by a bunch of ignorant scumbags.

 

As I've said J69, I find your view points a bit out of kilter with my experience of most people in the NHS - including A&E and mental health. But like you say, I don't know you, and it is possible to seperate your personal viewpoints from your professional work I suppose. What happened to teaching anyway?

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I didnt 'perpetuate' anything :D This whole topic concerns an article purporting that the bulger killers are now reformed. The article on snopes is directly related to that and this thread. And either way its hardly going to lead to an innocent man being lynched. one, because no-one know where he lives, and two, because the man in question has already killed a toddler in cold blood. The whole point of snopes is to tell people whether rumours are true or false!

 

As for teaching, I did a weeks pre-course experience and was bored shitless! My NHS Trust at the minute is cutting jobs and has banned all overtime so its a pretty crap place to work at the minute.

 

Im currently half way through the police application process :blush: im sure you will all be chuffed to hear. So when a job came up nursing young offenders I thought it would be interesting for 12months and would also help with my application so i took it.

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If someone suggests keeping a criminal incarcerated for the rest of their lives, kept in a tiny living space for 23 out of 24 hours every day, every week, every month, every year, etc. I have to wonder.....what's the point of this person's existence? To feel guilt? They will certainly never make any contribution to the rest of our lives again, whether positive or negative. How does that help the society from which they've been banned?

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There's not a country in the world that has the death penalty that I'd want to live in.

 

I agree that crime is a problem, and that lack of respect is the root cause of much crime, and I honestly don't know what the solution is. But the really serious crimes such as murder are still incredibly low, especially in Europe where the death penalty has long sinced been abandoned. I am not aware it is increasing either. So, even if it is morally acceptable (which I emphatically think it is not), is there any need for the death penalty? I don't think there is.

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Singapore?

 

I take the fact that you don't feel safe on the metro very seriously.

 

If we have no moral right to take a life, what right do we have to imprison one?

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