Egyptian revolution gathers pace.

[Dr Gloom 19838]

Whether it's general chat or the newcastle board, leasezmag is by far the most tedious poster on here. He contributes absolutely nothing of interest other than his tired old attempts at point scoring and proving he was right. Comes across like a lonely, bitter and hateful old man.

 

and you are who exactly ?

 

You live in Dulwich, you don't go to games, you haven't answered my pm asking if you knew my mate Gary [who does go to games] and have absolutely fuck all to say about anything, and you were completely wrong when you criticised the Halls and Shepherd for not winning the premiership title.

 

Doctor fuckin Gloom ? Too right. If you can't enjoy playing in the Champions League and europe and the players it takes to do it, you can't enjoy anything.

 

You can also contribute to this thread if you like, which that post above certainly isn't.

 

I do go to games when i can. Admittedly only 5-10 a season as I live in London. Don't see what that's got to do with anything.

 

Look, Im sure you have got a lot of other interesting stuff to say leazesmag. You just need to change the record from time to time. And try not to get so embittered over everything. I don't recall you ever getting into some friendly banter with anyone over anything. It's always the same arguments and endless point scoring. Maybe you should get some Prozac

[LeazesMag 0]

Whether it's general chat or the newcastle board, leasezmag is by far the most tedious poster on here. He contributes absolutely nothing of interest other than his tired old attempts at point scoring and proving he was right. Comes across like a lonely, bitter and hateful old man.

 

and you are who exactly ?

 

You live in Dulwich, you don't go to games, you haven't answered my pm asking if you knew my mate Gary [who does go to games] and have absolutely fuck all to say about anything, and you were completely wrong when you criticised the Halls and Shepherd for not winning the premiership title.

 

Doctor fuckin Gloom ? Too right. If you can't enjoy playing in the Champions League and europe and the players it takes to do it, you can't enjoy anything.

 

You can also contribute to this thread if you like, which that post above certainly isn't.

 

I do go to games when i can. Admittedly only 5-10 a season as I live in London. Don't see what that's got to do with anything.

 

Look, Im sure you have got a lot of other interesting stuff to say leazesmag. You just need to change the record from time to time. And try not to get so embittered over everything. I don't recall you ever getting into some friendly banter with anyone over anything. It's always the same arguments and endless point scoring. Maybe you should get some Prozac

 

I make lots of posts and they are from all being about the Halls and Shepherd, although sometimes it is unavoidable due to the absurd statements some people make. Like it or not, the politics of the football club is always going to involve them, as they are our previous owners and to date the current owner is looking less and less likely to get anywhere near matching them. My personal opinion is that this current season is possibly the best we are ever going to do under Mike Ashley, but time will tell.

 

Anyway, back to the thread. I quite like reading the posts by KSA, he is well clued up on middle east current affairs, as are others like HF, its just that I agree with KSA.

Edited March 16, 2011 by LeazesMag

[Rob W 0]

"Maybe you should get some Prozac"

 

We tried that years ago - what he needs is a revolver with a single bullet in it TBH

[LeazesMag 0]

"Maybe you should get some Prozac"

 

We tried that years ago - what he needs is a revolver with a single bullet in it TBH

 

So how long exactly are you prepared to let Gaddafi kill his own people ? No reply ? Out of sight out of mind.....

[Neville Neville Neville 0]

I'm not a prolific poster on here, I shall reply to your points in turn and fully but in advance don't expect me to respond (quickly or at all) to anything you post in reply as I've seen how time-consuming and lowest common denominator (for parties on both sides of the argument) the circular arguments become. However, feel free to consider my non-reply as a sign of weakness/defeat. I have also (over several years of lurking) seen how you llike to bring up the non-answering of questions raised. To avoid this, I shall (very patronisingly but I feel necessarily) put bold subheadings to help break up the reply and signpost where I am answering your questions.

 

The non-replied PM

 

Firstly, odd that you (well, maybe not you, that someone) would bring up a massively unrelated PM (the only PM I've sent you). Its not like I've a long history of arguing with you, or that the PM was on an awkward subject. All I did was try to genuinely find out your views (away from circular arguments and going off on tangents) about where you thought newcastle would be if we had remained under the old board. Obviously this wasn't a question with a right answer as it is an opinion, and you gave me a short reasoned opinion. Nuff said, there were no obvious non-rhetorical questions asked back, and I'm not one for needless back and forth. Perhaps I should have thanked you for your reply... Still a strange way to begin a reply.

 

Potential libyan exodus

 

This topic for me would be pretty low on my justifications for getting involved in a conflict. I feel that the loss of life (Libyan fighters/civilans or foreign armed forces), the economic impact of war, the logistics of war, the potential stress on fractious western and middle eastern relations, the precedent set by getting involved (and how to choose which uprising is the right one to back in the future), potential repercusions, and many other things are more important factors into making a very difficult decision

 

I wouldn't expect there to be a mass immigration to Britain, and feel this is the stereotypical Daily Mail/ Daily Express reader view. I'm not an expert on the subject but I would suggest there are many more countries that would bear the brunt of mass migration, either due to location, similarity of culture, or less stringent rules on immigration.

 

Obviously Libya is in Africa rather than the middle-east heartland but I would suggest than Iraq is probably the best recent comparison (you having brought up Saddam as a comparison in other posts in this thread). I was aware of the mass exodus to Jordan and Syria and Egypt from generally keeping up with the news but I have found these articles which make interesting reading (for the person willing to appreciate others' viewpoints)

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/oct/07/iraq.immigration

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_Iraq

 

Considering that the Iraq War was a coalition of the willing of the US, UK, and a few others, how is it fair that the people of Jordan, Syria, Egypt, and Sweden are the ones that are "swamped" with refugees. Seems from the numbers that the US and the UK got off pretty lightly. There was no huge clamour from those countries to remove Saddam at the time. Plus, I would venture that, with the exception of Sweden, the average person is those countries enjoys a lower standard of life than those of the UK. How would you feel if the US and Australia invaded France for regime change (after Sarkozy goes all Napoleon), with no support from the UK or the rest of Europe, and England was swamped with thousands of French people fleeing wartorn France with little money. Am sure you'd be very understanding as they sort of look like us, and can mostly speak enough English to get by. Wouldn't you?

 

Immigration to the UK

 

With regards to the UK providing a home for anyone who wants to come here, I think the guardian (liberal, blah, blah) article shows that that is far from the case. For that time period in 2007, only 1 in 6 of a relatively small number of refugees (including those successful on appeal) were able to settle here. I don't have all the statistics from the beginning of the war to the end, but I would say that that is a pretty impressive 'rejection' rate from a nation who might feel a tiny bit obliged to look after those fleeing.

 

On general terms, there clearly is an infrastructure in the UK that is unable to support infinite people. There needs to be a mixture of controlled immigration for those coming to work in jobs that the indigenous people are underqualified/unwilling to do, plus those who come for humanitarian reasons. I think that generally the UK has got a pretty good mix where it has control (i.e. non EU migration).

 

On the subject of integration, there is an issue there but not one as problematic as you bang on about. yes, there are many bad people with bad intentions, and communities who wish to transport their own culture into a different environment. That is not ideal. These problems come with a multicultural society (which I am proud to live in) with ares of poverty (which I am less proud to have in our society), and I am sure are replicated the world over. That doesn't mean it is right

 

2 things to think about:

1/ British people (*generalisation alert*) are notoriously poor at integrating into other societies and cultures, be it for holidays or settling abroad in the sun. At least a decent proportion of these poor integrators have come to Britain to escape something horrible and struggle to integrate. I would say that very few Brits are forced out of their country through war and poverty (mainly by the rain! or through work), and still refuse to make the effort to integrate with the way of life abroad. OK, so they are not generally going out being terrorists (like all of them are doing here) and more often than not are helping stimulate the local economy, but they are still failing to integrate.

2/ What about the indigenous British people failing to integrate into society here? They are as bad, probably more so due to having had opportunities to spurn, than those that fail to integrate from abroad. You know, the salt of the earth local people, with families refusing to work, bring up large families, sponge off the state, are antisocial, spend most of the time getting wasted, probably out there commiting crimes. Again, there will be less of these than the papers would like you to think but they are failing to integrate into society (or trying to bring society down to their level). Is it OK because some of their great grandparents fought for their country and not for someone else?.... Maybe we can do a swap, for each non-integrating Libyan we accept, we can exile one of these Brits to a potentially wartorn Libya.

 

Questions of increasing hyperbole

 

Not sure if I put my faith in the UN. But it was formed for this very situation (as Happy Face showed when quoting Churchill), and I have more faith in the UN making the right call (or choosing not to make a call) than in you making the right call. With regards to the UN failing to back Iraq invasion, I think you could at the very least call the right/wrong of the decision "arguable." They will generally err on the side of caution, and whilst that can be bad, I think caution will generally save more lives than it loses.... may not stop those pesky immigrants though

 

Human nature - would probably just about put my faith in the median human's nature. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) its not the average human whose going to be getting involved in this. There will be powerful people with various agendas, a lot of generally cuntish people, and a lot of selfless people as well. The average person will be sat at home seeing how it plays out. I would say that the general nature of the average human is to try and do as much good without causing great inconvenience or harm to one's self or others, and that would probably be the right attitude for this situation IMO

 

Not especially happy seeing Libya murder its own people. In fact, I think it makes me sad actually. However, there's been a lot of murdering of a lot of people by governments and armies and militia and rebels over the years, some of which the watching world has intervened in, but most that has been left alone. Thats not because people like seeing streets littered with bodies but because you have to be realistic. You have to pick and choose (if any) your fights, and have to accept that to do nothing may (horribly) be the lesser of 2 very big evils.

And, as it has been said, if there is something that tips things into it, on balance, being the greater of 2 evils to do nothing, then you must act, and act decisively. I see nothing that makes this situation special, fortunately/unfortunately

 

Libyans shooting dead a policewoman on the streets of London - i wonder if the US are considering evacuating due to their "hyperbole alert" going above safe levels over there! Not quite sure how we get from A to B to egpytion hieroglyphic of a hawk or something.

However, I shall humour you. This would be bad. But I'm pretty sure that the things which would be more likely to make a Libyan come to/stay in London and feel the urge to shoot a policewoman would either be Back to the Future 4, or a perceived "Invasion" of their country and a similar post-invasion magical perfect outcome as there has been in Iraq. I guess if we fail to kill loads of Libyans through the medium of war, then statistically there may be more Libyans still alive, and thus a statistical higher chance of the next person shooting a policewoman in London being Libyan, so maybe its a reasonable argument after all.

 

LM's opinion, hindsight, or a fools world..with cavemen...

 

Hopefully this overly long post has outlined what I feel should be done. Nothing militarily.

As you have said numerous times, this is not a computer game (it also isn't a shoe or a carpet, but that's by the by). There are a multitude of factors that will say whether doing nothing, military intervention, or non-military intervention (sanctions, asset freezing, making Gaddafi an international pariah, etc) ends up being the right decision. I don't have hindsight (I'm short sighted) so maybe I'm wrong and you're right (for massively wrong reasons most likely) and in years to come, every topic in this board will be tediously derailed by either 'I told you about Ashley' or 'I told you about Libya and those fucking immigrants' and tbh the variety will be appreciated

 

Not sure who the cavemen comment is aimed at. I hope its at gaddafi and his mercenaries. I fear, given past form, its more a blanket term aimed at Libya as a whole, or the middle east/muslim/non-British world as a whole.

 

Generally though, I'd be happier living in what (I feel from your many posts on here) you say is a fool's world than a LeazesMag ideal world.

 

Finally, you, of all people, should be the expert at appreciating that getting rid of a perceived (by the majority) to be bad thing, and replacing it by a perceived (by the majority) to be good/better/different thing does not always work. You do bring it up 20-30 times a day on here, and who knows how often in everyday life with anyone else who will listen. Its obviously not a perfect analogy but it illustrates that even when your grass is old and yellowing, it may still be even less green on the other side.

 

 

Hmmmm... interesting

 

So 'we' go in 'there' to stop 'them' from coming 'here.'

 

Presumably some soldiers' lives will be lost. Just help me out with the equation here, what's the acceptable ratio of soldier's lives lost to potential immigrants halted. Am curious. Is 1 person's life worth stopping 1000 immigrants coming here? 100 immigrants? 10 immigrants? 1 poppy-burning immigrant? Am not an expert in life:immigration trading, so apologies if I've got the numbers all wrong.

 

Given your issues with the poppy burning, I'm surprised that you would put British soldiers' lives on the line to stop immigrants. Pah, why bother going to the hassle of putting troops on hostile ground, why not just get our troops on the border (pick a border, any border), arm them up real nice, and let them halt the immigrants. Almost like, to you, its more important that a stupid muslim is punished for burning a poppy, than the life lost that the poppy stands for.

 

 

it ?

 

Revolution/counter revolution, uprising/surpression etc etc

 

Arab problem, let them work it out themselves, unless it looks like the fundamentalist crazies are going to win, then we'd have to protect self interest.

 

on the other hand, we can allow the general population to escape to the west instead of being murdered where they will be forever grateful and seek to integrate into our societies...

 

oh, wait

 

You haven't answered my PM from a few weeks ago, when I answered what you asked me.

 

Nobody wants to put our Armed Forces in the front line and be killed. My comment is a consequence of not dealing with the situation and creating a situation whereby people will want to come to Britain to get away from their homeland [but pine for it later] - and Britain it will be in most cases, because we look after "them" at our own expense and detriment.

 

How long exactly do you think that we, can continue to provide shelter and a home for anybody who wants to come here, both economically and culturally, given that increasing numbers are showing an increasing unwillingness to integrate ?

 

Or do you put your faith in the UN ? Or Human nature ? Or are you happy to see Libya continue murdering its own people, maybe even one day shooting dead a policewoman on the streets of London ? Don't get me wrong, I don't want to see Servicemen or security services killed anywhere, but what in YOUR opinion can be done to deal with it, rather than either use hindsight or live in a fools world where you think we can educate these cavemen ?

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

Forces loyal to Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi have launched their first bombing raids on the main rebel-held city of Benghazi.

 

BBC correspondents in the city heard the sound of low-flying aircraft and explosions on the city outskirts.

 

Mustafa Gheriani, spokesman for the opposition Transitional National Council, said the city's airport had been attacked.

 

He told the BBC that the bombs had missed their targets.

 

Benghazi, Libya's second city, has a population of a million.

 

A UN Security Council vote on action in Libya could be held later on Thursday.

 

Western countries want a no-fly zone to halt the advance of government forces.

 

Following the toppling of the long-time leaders of neighbouring Tunisia and Egypt earlier this year, Libyan protesters started to demand that Col Gaddafi step down after 42 years of autocratic rule.

 

They quickly seized much of eastern Libya, but in recent days pro-Gaddafi forces have retaken several towns.

 

Beeb

[Anorthernsoul 1221]

Forces loyal to Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi have launched their first bombing raids on the main rebel-held city of Benghazi.

 

BBC correspondents in the city heard the sound of low-flying aircraft and explosions on the city outskirts.

 

Mustafa Gheriani, spokesman for the opposition Transitional National Council, said the city's airport had been attacked.

 

He told the BBC that the bombs had missed their targets.

 

Benghazi, Libya's second city, has a population of a million.

 

A UN Security Council vote on action in Libya could be held later on Thursday.

 

Western countries want a no-fly zone to halt the advance of government forces.

 

Following the toppling of the long-time leaders of neighbouring Tunisia and Egypt earlier this year, Libyan protesters started to demand that Col Gaddafi step down after 42 years of autocratic rule.

 

They quickly seized much of eastern Libya, but in recent days pro-Gaddafi forces have retaken several towns.

 

Beeb

 

Twas only a matter of time.

[Christmas Tree 3997]

Listening to Will Hagues speech in the commons at lunch time, its pretty clear that action is only a matter of time away and Gadaffi is a dead man walking.

[snakehips 0]

Listening to Will Hagues speech in the commons at lunch time, its pretty clear that action is only a matter of time away and Gadaffi is a dead man walking.

 

Nice to see it hasn't taken too long

 

In other up-to-speed news, Glenn Roeder is scouting a little known Dutchman called Kirk Kuyt.

[Christmas Tree 3997]

Resolution goes to UN vote at 10pm, British forces take to the sky and start bombing tomorrow.

[snakehips 0]

Resolution goes to UN vote at 10pm, British forces take to the sky and start bombing tomorrow.

 

China to veto by 22:01 ??

[PaddockLad 14627]

Resolution goes to UN vote at 10pm, British forces take to the sky and start bombing tomorrow.

 

China to veto by 22:01 ??

 

Surprisingly no, China and Russia didnt use their veto, so it looks very much theyre going to go for a no fly zone....to start with.....

[ChezGiven 0]

There will be airstrikes tonight.

[Christmas Tree 3997]

There will be airstrikes tonight.

 

Cameron to make commons statement tomorrow so it will either have started by then or be hours away. But yes, air strikes will be the start and they will try and take out as much as they can. I wouldnt like to be a Gadaffi tank commander sitting out in the desert tonight.

[Renton 17827]

So...... Gadaffi has shat his pants and bottled it I see. What next?

[snakehips 0]

So...... Gadaffi has shat his pants and bottled it I see. What next?

 

Gaddafi Duck and his family on a 'plane to S.America?

[LeazesMag 0]

So...... Gadaffi has shat his pants and bottled it I see. What next?

 

Gaddafi Duck and his family on a 'plane to S.America?

 

the UK would give him a council house, police protection, a new identity and all the benefits for the next 20 years.

Edited March 18, 2011 by LeazesMag

[snakehips 0]

So...... Gadaffi has shat his pants and bottled it I see. What next?

 

Gaddafi Duck and his family on a 'plane to S.America?

 

the UK will give him a council house, police protection, a new identity and all the benefits for the next 20 years.

[NJS 3985]

So...... Gadaffi has shat his pants and bottled it I see. What next?

 

Gaddafi Duck and his family on a 'plane to S.America?

 

the UK will give him a council house, police protection, a new identity and all the benefits for the next 20 years.

 

Or the rich and powerful who have been fine with taking his money for years for property in London could simply allow him to live in one of his many houses.

[LeazesMag 0]

So...... Gadaffi has shat his pants and bottled it I see. What next?

 

Gaddafi Duck and his family on a 'plane to S.America?

 

the UK will give him a council house, police protection, a new identity and all the benefits for the next 20 years.

 

no need for that, what I say has its merits. Anyway, I hope he ends up in South America and is fed to the crocodiles by some drug runners, with Yvonne Fletchers family having a grandstand view.

 

What will happen in Libya now I wonder ?

[Christmas Tree 3997]

Going to be a canny cat and mouse game this.

 

Very clever of him to take the sting out of the resolution by basically agreeing to everything.

 

Be interesting to see if we go ahead with air strikes or whether this turns into a drawn out long game.

[LeazesMag 0]

So...... Gadaffi has shat his pants and bottled it I see. What next?

 

Gaddafi Duck and his family on a 'plane to S.America?

 

the UK will give him a council house, police protection, a new identity and all the benefits for the next 20 years.

 

Or the rich and powerful who have been fine with taking his money for years for property in London could simply allow him to live in one of his many houses.

 

why do you use what happens in the UK as justification for events elsewhere ? Are you referring to arms dealers ? This is just the way of the world, you could call what they deal in to be "defence" too because like it or not, not everybody arms themselves for deliberate provocative or aggressive intentions. The world is full of evil bastards mate, not everybody lives in a sort of happy fairyland, you have to take account of human nature, and people are different all over the world.

 

The world is full or rich people too, you might be envious, so am I, but it seems to eat you up. Gaddafi is a cunt of the highest order, like Saddam was. End of story.

[LeazesMag 0]

Going to be a canny cat and mouse game this.

 

Very clever of him to take the sting out of the resolution by basically agreeing to everything.

 

Be interesting to see if we go ahead with air strikes or whether this turns into a drawn out long game.

 

..... attempting to play the same game as Saddam did and laugh at everybody for being too timid like he did .....

[snakehips 0]

So...... Gadaffi has shat his pants and bottled it I see. What next?

 

Gaddafi Duck and his family on a 'plane to S.America?

 

the UK will give him a council house, police protection, a new identity and all the benefits for the next 20 years.

 

Or the rich and powerful who have been fine with taking his money for years for property in London could simply allow him to live in one of his many houses.

 

why do you use what happens in the UK as justification for events elsewhere ? Are you referring to arms dealers ? This is just the way of the world, you could call what they deal in to be "defence" too because like it or not, not everybody arms themselves for deliberate provocative or aggressive intentions. The world is full of evil bastards mate, not everybody lives in a sort of happy fairyland, you have to take account of human nature, and people are different all over the world.

 

The world is full or rich people too, you might be envious, so am I, but it seems to eat you up. Gaddafi is a cunt of the highest order, like Saddam was. End of story.

 

Y'see, Leazes, you can do it. That is a good post

[NJS 3985]

why do you use what happens in the UK as justification for events elsewhere ? Are you referring to arms dealers ? This is just the way of the world, you could call what they deal in to be "defence" too because like it or not, not everybody arms themselves for deliberate provocative or aggressive intentions. The world is full of evil bastards mate, not everybody lives in a sort of happy fairyland, you have to take account of human nature, and people are different all over the world.

 

The world is full or rich people too, you might be envious, so am I, but it seems to eat you up. Gaddafi is a cunt of the highest order, like Saddam was. End of story.

 

Not arms dealers - the people with "old" money who have no ethics and who have always done business with the evil scum of the world while getting their patsy politicians to fool people with talk of morality and law.

 

If you're so realistic about there being so many scum in the world why do you think we should interfere in anything? - surely more scum will just appear elsewhere so why bother - after all the arms dealers always need Saddams/Gadaffis/customers.