Rayvin

Not sure this scans... I don't think the fascists want open and compassionate dialogue They have outright said they're delighted with how 'the left' is currently handling everything. Largely because it's driving people over to the nazi side. I'm saying that as liberals, we should want open and compassionate dialogue with the people that the left is pushing away.

Right but not everyone who voted for Trump did so for these reasons. Some people really fucking didn't like Clinton. I get the point though, identity groupings exist because it's far easier to tackle things if you consider groups of people as one uniform bloc. But the answer to the bigger problem is for the left to reach out to the white working class and to stop alienating them. I've said this about Corbyn as well - in fact, it's the key reason I wanted him in. I know many people (Sargon) don't think he has a message for the white working class, but that's only because he's not actively talking about them as a demographic. And that's fucking good. He's talking about the working class, working people, policies to support families in poverty, etc - and that really is the answer. That's really all it fucking takes. We don't need to turn around and say 'white people are hard done by'. We just need to stop talking about race/gender and work towards getting everyone onto a level footing as best we can. Sure, we help women from working class backgrounds up more than men from the same background. Fine. But we don't assume that women from middle class backgrounds need a leg up as much as working class men - because they probably don't. Surely we're capable of coming up with metrics to assess people's needs, without resorting to racial groupings? How about level of schooling? How about family wealth growing up? If we do that, we can eliminate structural problems that disadvantage people of certain ethnicities (things like family wealth or level of schooling), and not at the same time create a growing nazi backlash.

It will indeed be human nature. We need to rise above it if we ever want to actually solve these problems though. Until we do, they're just going to continue. To me, it seems perfectly logical in the current framework for humanity, that if you get one group blaming all their problems on another group, the latter will become defensive and potentially aggressive. That some of us are able to press down this defensive response is encouraging, but some of those same people then let themselves down by turning on those who can't. It becomes a 'holier than thou' style of rhetoric, and further alienation occurs. I think privilege checking should be done on an individual basis. I think it's absolutely fair to ask an individual person to acknowledge specific advantages they've had. I'm not so sure it's fair to do so to a group. Who on earth knows what kind of experiences individuals in a group may or may not have had that should be considered when determining how 'privileged' a specific person is. Moreover, if you consider privilege in a group level, and thus determine that white men are highly privileged - white men at the bottom of society are naturally going to resist that. Irrespective of how true it is. Because you're effectively telling them that they had all of these life advantages innately present, and despite these, despite being white, straight men, they're still at the bottom of the fucking pile. That's a lot to expect someone to swallow. Given how readily humankind is prepared to self delude, I don't think it surprising at all that there is so much push back against these notions. Calling people racists and misogynists is cathartic but not even close to being remotely helpful in actually dealing with any of these problems. It's nothing more than an attempt to shame people into silence - and what we're seeing now, horrifyingly, is people owning these labels so that they can continue to speak about how they feel. They don't care anymore. Say what you want, they don't care. And it's because we're not listening to them. I was a trustee in a counselling charity for some time, and I remember the (female) CEO of the charity telling me that she'd been to a panel amidst domestic violence charities and shelters. Many of the informed people made the case that the best way to protect women would actually be to counsel the abusers. To look at why they're doing what they are, and work them through it and out the other end. Yes, you take the women out of danger and you lock up the abuser, but you don't just abandon him. You try to turn him around. You listen. And they had demonstrable proof that this strategy significantly reduced repeat offending. The problem is, politically, no one is going to want to spend money on these people. Even though it's for the benefit of their future partners. Even though it would help fight the problem. It all sounds very familiar.

The Alt Right seem to be very clear on the fact that the surge to make everything about identity has bolstered their numbers considerably. They are highly approving of the notion of keeping the conversation about identity going. Which is why it remains destructive, and a key reason for why Trump is where he is. You can despair at and castigate the people who feel insecure about their identity as white men all you want by rationalising the whole set up and how it favours such people, but the reality is that such despair and castigation is more likely to entrench their beliefs. When I say that we need open and compassionate dialogue with such people, I not saying that we agree with what they're saying. But we should at least understand why they feel so insecure. They'll tell you it's because the left blames them for everything, amongst other things like economic pressures and an inability to process emotional turmoil, etc. So, given that the need to blame people isn't hugely constructive anyway, could we perhaps find a way forward that doesn't involve blame, but still works to make things better for women and minorities? And indeed white working class men at the same time. I would argue that would be the most positive thing to do. I don't quite understand why there are so many people prepared to just yell at those who have world views borne out of insecurity (unless they're insecure themselves, in which case we're all trapped in this cycle of depressing mutually affirming insecurity).

It's been remarkable watching the media strive to find new words to describe the ever escalating cascade of incompetence tbh

I didn't mean we shouldn't criticise, I just meant that it probably won't hurt him. The best we can do with Trump is try to block the crazy stuff and hope that he gets booted out in the end because he hasn't delivered on anything and his support base becomes disillusioned with him.

He'll just castigate the media further though. Build up more of a siege mentality. I watched a review of his polling by the young turks yesterday and they noted that even while his numbers were down, all of the people polled who voted for him in November would still do so again...

Just for the record, I obviously agree with a lot of this.

Just so we're all clear, I haven't made a second account...

That's just depressing. Maybe they'll review it now this has been pointed out but I'd imagine they'll find some way of ignoring it.

Ah I see what you're saying now. Yeah true, but speaking frankly he probably just doesn't see them that way. He sees them as clowns because they're hurting his cause, I would think. Bannon is hardly a stand up guy I assumed you were surprised that he even called them clowns. I am a bit.

Yep, Bannon seems to be attempting to improve his credibility. I suspect he considers that the Nazis undermine his plan to stealth in some fairly right wing policies. They're bad for the optics

it's perfect.

I don't - I wouldn't trust the Republicans as far as I can throw them. As a slight change in topic, apparently certain US states have been trying to pass legislation to allow people to 'accidentally' run over protesters... wtf is wrong with the US. http://edition.cnn.com/2017/01/25/us/nd-protest-driver-bill-trnd/index.html

I did, it was a very well done video; extremely harrowing and hard to watch - sadly confirms for me the direction I think this will go (deaths and violence on all sides, probably at some point encompassing other civilians). It doesn't change my opinions generally because (and maybe I should make this more distinct) it seemed to be following the genuine nazis, and not just the kids who've been propagandised into it. I was under the impression that the whole point of the march was to 'Unite the Right'. Did that mean 'Unite the Nazis' in practice? I mean I don't know, maybe it did. maybe they were all dyed in the wool nazis, but the stories I've heard from some of the families who have since disavowed their sons makes me think that we're losing young men who would otherwise have been productive members of society. I dunno.

Yep, but wasn't that true on the right wing side too...? Was under the impression they weren't all nazis.

Just to be clear on this, Antifa absolutely are delighting in the damage they do to Nazis, even the unarmed ones. This is a very tribal thing. And Antifa aren't a response to fascism really. They're a movement to end the power of the nation state and to reintroduce communism. They believe any manifestation of the state in its current form is fascism.

We need rid of all supremacist ideologies full stop. Including patriotism, I would argue.

They're closing down free speech anyway man, if it saves a few lives to do it sooner rather than later then maybe we should just get it over with.

According to Fish, yes. In fact, if I supported the Fish's view here, it would take care of the Antifa problem too. They'd be banned for hate speech and incitement to violence also. I agree that it wouldn't solve anything though.

Do they get them in the US though? Fish might have a point if the US cracks down on them but not on Nazis. I know that the UK was comfortable with Abu Hamza for a lengthy period of time before he was finally deported but I'm not sure what the lay of the land is these days.

Ok you don't care about the nazis. What about everyone else?

Aren't you worried that people will die? When they start shooting each other? The police in the crossfire, innocent civilians? They're doing this in public places - they're effectively letting two stateless armies fight it out in the streets. I don't think it'll be civil war. I think they'll get one big battle where we end up with a heavy number of pointless casualties and then we'll all wake the fuck up. The US will forcibly disband both sides and put them all on watch lists - the right and left wing rhetoric spinners will take a conciliatory approach to coverage and we'll all call for compassion, understanding and unity. Standard human practice. Totally fail to deal with a problem until some significant killing has taken place, and then act like we'll learn lessons from it. Having said all of this - yes, it's utterly repellant that you have armed thugs threatening synagogues and anyone else in their path as part of a resurgence of one of the most appalling ideologies in the modern era. Why the US constitution seems to allow for such things is absolutely beyond me.

I feel compelled to point out that Antifa have been conducting armed protests as well... maybe not this time, but there's plenty of photos of them doing it. They're actively seeking and working on combat training.

Thanks for this, although his post didn't really trouble me. I know my views and I know where they come from. In this, I know I'm neither of those things. Beyond putting KCG on ignore, I didn't feel a need to respond. I suppose I'm not getting the tone right here generally. I'm very aware of insecurity as being a motivator to believe in/act out against all manner of things, and there is just such tribalistic hatred on both sides of the spectrum now that it's pushing people to extremes. It's as if the SJWs and the Alt Right look at each other in the way Newcastle and Sunderland supporters view each other (amongst those who lack any real emotional maturity). My experiences of viewing this will look alien to people who haven't 'seen what I've seen', I guess. And equally, I'm probably colouring the whole issue too much based on my anecdotally witnessed social/alternative media experience. I don't think I'm being influenced by any right wing commentators. I seriously don't - I keep an eye on them to see which way the wind is blowing in the mindsets of the activist right. But I might be overstating the significance of what is happening in and around them and applying it to real world events more so than is warranted. Thus, when I blame the left for being complicit in thrusting people into the arms, it's based on the fact that the right winger commentators swarm around this stuff and you can see them using it to further poison the minds of their following. But I can't turn around and say that they're lying, because someone on the left actually said this stuff. It's depressing.